Italy leads......Spain follows?
Sep 25th 2013, 6:58 am
#1
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Posts: 3,081
Italy leads......Spain follows?
I have just noticed a thread on the Italian forum, which gives a link to the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ing-rules.html
It says that in the Italian asset declaration, tax residents had to notify the Italian tax office of property, shares and foreign bank accounts where the asset value was over 10k.
Now that has changed and there is no lower limit so all assets must be declared.
Apparently there will be no extra tax to pay, but like the Spanish asset dec. there are threats of fines if failing to declare any bank accounts.
For most people of a certain age, they would have numerous bank accounts, some still used, some long forgotten.
I have the feeling that the forgotten, almost empty bank accounts could become a good money spinner for the Italian tax office, as it seems that the main object could be raking in fine money.
I cannot imagine that they Italian tax office will catch many more in he asset declaration net with worthwhile assets (0 - 10k) who have not declared.
I presume that most expats in Italy would have declared their assets with the limit being lower than Spain, so whereas a lot in Spain did not declare their house in the UK, as it cost 25k to buy years ago.
Italy had a much lower limit on assets that did not have to be declared in Spain which is 50k, but they seem to have moved the goalposts.
I wonder if the expats in Spain who were breathing a sigh of relief because their assets did not amount to 50k should consider this new tactic, because if Italy can do it, why not Spain?
There has been quite a heated debate on this matter on the Spanish forum, with quite a few wishing to become non residents, mainly the ones who have more than 50k in assets.
Could a lower limit, 10k for example or even zero like Italy, force more expats to consider becoming non residents?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ing-rules.html
It says that in the Italian asset declaration, tax residents had to notify the Italian tax office of property, shares and foreign bank accounts where the asset value was over 10k.
Now that has changed and there is no lower limit so all assets must be declared.
Apparently there will be no extra tax to pay, but like the Spanish asset dec. there are threats of fines if failing to declare any bank accounts.
For most people of a certain age, they would have numerous bank accounts, some still used, some long forgotten.
I have the feeling that the forgotten, almost empty bank accounts could become a good money spinner for the Italian tax office, as it seems that the main object could be raking in fine money.
I cannot imagine that they Italian tax office will catch many more in he asset declaration net with worthwhile assets (0 - 10k) who have not declared.
I presume that most expats in Italy would have declared their assets with the limit being lower than Spain, so whereas a lot in Spain did not declare their house in the UK, as it cost 25k to buy years ago.
Italy had a much lower limit on assets that did not have to be declared in Spain which is 50k, but they seem to have moved the goalposts.
I wonder if the expats in Spain who were breathing a sigh of relief because their assets did not amount to 50k should consider this new tactic, because if Italy can do it, why not Spain?
There has been quite a heated debate on this matter on the Spanish forum, with quite a few wishing to become non residents, mainly the ones who have more than 50k in assets.
Could a lower limit, 10k for example or even zero like Italy, force more expats to consider becoming non residents?
Sep 25th 2013, 7:51 am
#2
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 613
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
I imagine this will become fairly standard, especially for the eurozone countries as they head towards their banking union.
Sep 25th 2013, 3:58 pm
#3
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Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Andalucia Spain
Posts: 672
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
I have said it before and will say it again.
Most European countries are broke (including the UK) and are existing only by a gigantic Ponzi scheme.
When the chips are down governments will take the money from those that have it. What better way than a register!
Cyprus was the EU's way of testing the water. You can have a guarantee scheme but overnight it could be rendered worthless
Most European countries are broke (including the UK) and are existing only by a gigantic Ponzi scheme.
When the chips are down governments will take the money from those that have it. What better way than a register!
Cyprus was the EU's way of testing the water. You can have a guarantee scheme but overnight it could be rendered worthless
Sep 26th 2013, 2:09 pm
#4
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 990
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
I have just noticed a thread on the Italian forum, which gives a link to the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ing-rules.html
It says that in the Italian asset declaration, tax residents had to notify the Italian tax office of property, shares and foreign bank accounts where the asset value was over 10k.
Now that has changed and there is no lower limit so all assets must be declared.
Apparently there will be no extra tax to pay, but like the Spanish asset dec. there are threats of fines if failing to declare any bank accounts.
For most people of a certain age, they would have numerous bank accounts, some still used, some long forgotten.
I have the feeling that the forgotten, almost empty bank accounts could become a good money spinner for the Italian tax office, as it seems that the main object could be raking in fine money.
I cannot imagine that they Italian tax office will catch many more in he asset declaration net with worthwhile assets (0 - 10k) who have not declared.
I presume that most expats in Italy would have declared their assets with the limit being lower than Spain, so whereas a lot in Spain did not declare their house in the UK, as it cost 25k to buy years ago.
Italy had a much lower limit on assets that did not have to be declared in Spain which is 50k, but they seem to have moved the goalposts.
I wonder if the expats in Spain who were breathing a sigh of relief because their assets did not amount to 50k should consider this new tactic, because if Italy can do it, why not Spain?
There has been quite a heated debate on this matter on the Spanish forum, with quite a few wishing to become non residents, mainly the ones who have more than 50k in assets.
Could a lower limit, 10k for example or even zero like Italy, force more expats to consider becoming non residents?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ing-rules.html
It says that in the Italian asset declaration, tax residents had to notify the Italian tax office of property, shares and foreign bank accounts where the asset value was over 10k.
Now that has changed and there is no lower limit so all assets must be declared.
Apparently there will be no extra tax to pay, but like the Spanish asset dec. there are threats of fines if failing to declare any bank accounts.
For most people of a certain age, they would have numerous bank accounts, some still used, some long forgotten.
I have the feeling that the forgotten, almost empty bank accounts could become a good money spinner for the Italian tax office, as it seems that the main object could be raking in fine money.
I cannot imagine that they Italian tax office will catch many more in he asset declaration net with worthwhile assets (0 - 10k) who have not declared.
I presume that most expats in Italy would have declared their assets with the limit being lower than Spain, so whereas a lot in Spain did not declare their house in the UK, as it cost 25k to buy years ago.
Italy had a much lower limit on assets that did not have to be declared in Spain which is 50k, but they seem to have moved the goalposts.
I wonder if the expats in Spain who were breathing a sigh of relief because their assets did not amount to 50k should consider this new tactic, because if Italy can do it, why not Spain?
There has been quite a heated debate on this matter on the Spanish forum, with quite a few wishing to become non residents, mainly the ones who have more than 50k in assets.
Could a lower limit, 10k for example or even zero like Italy, force more expats to consider becoming non residents?
It would be fairer to have to declare all assets outside Spain, of whatever value.If people had eg 49.000 sterling of assets, then they would still have considerable assets, which don't have to be declared.I can't understand why only the purchase price of property should be declared . It may have been 10,000 years ago but 200,000 now, so its an asset worth well over the required 50,000 euros
Another thing did all the folk who didn't declared but had nearly 50,000
in sterling realise, that, when converted to euros it might well be over the 50,000 euros limit, and they should have declared?
Sep 26th 2013, 2:36 pm
#5
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Posts: 613
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
It's too complicated to work out the current value of a property. They want the purchase value so if you sell it they can work out the CGT.
Sep 26th 2013, 4:56 pm
#6
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,081
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
When you write about becoming non residents, do you mean leaving to live in UK, or deregistering form everything in Spain, while continuing to live in Spain under the radar, as has been hinted by posters in various forums.
It would be fairer to have to declare all assets outside Spain, of whatever value.If people had eg 49.000 sterling of assets, then they would still have considerable assets, which don't have to be declared.I can't understand why only the purchase price of property should be declared . It may have been 10,000 years ago but 200,000 now, so its an asset worth well over the required 50,000 euros
Another thing did all the folk who didn't declared but had nearly 50,000
in sterling realise, that, when converted to euros it might well be over the 50,000 euros limit, and they should have declared?
It would be fairer to have to declare all assets outside Spain, of whatever value.If people had eg 49.000 sterling of assets, then they would still have considerable assets, which don't have to be declared.I can't understand why only the purchase price of property should be declared . It may have been 10,000 years ago but 200,000 now, so its an asset worth well over the required 50,000 euros
Another thing did all the folk who didn't declared but had nearly 50,000
in sterling realise, that, when converted to euros it might well be over the 50,000 euros limit, and they should have declared?
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
Last edited by me me; Sep 26th 2013 at 4:59 pm.
Sep 26th 2013, 5:20 pm
#7
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Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
How would I know what others are thinking.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
Sep 26th 2013, 6:21 pm
#8
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,081
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
As I have often said, family and self preservation first.
Sep 27th 2013, 10:43 am
#10
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Joined: Jan 2006
Location: On the edge
Posts: 20,460
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
How would I know what others are thinking.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
It was my plan, but having sold the villa so quickly that all changed. It will be holidays from now on!
Sep 27th 2013, 7:09 pm
#11
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 446
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
How would I know what others are thinking.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
This is what we hope to do too ... once upon a time, when we embarked on this adventure, we saw ourselves possibly taking Spanish residency - not a chance now!
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:15 pm
#12
Just Joined
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
You should discuss this matter with some expert. It has some complications involved in it.
Oct 22nd 2013, 12:55 pm
#13
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
How would I know what others are thinking.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
I can only speak for ourselves, and we will be giving up our residency starting in Jan 2014.
We will spend at least 90 days throughout the year in the UK, then,180 days in Spain, and then will go wherever we fancy for the rest of the year.
All perfectly legal.
We feel we must do something to protect our assets, others may disagree, but that´s life.
Keeping our assets for our own and childrens benefit is very important for us, and we have the freedom to do what is best for our family.
but don't you have to be tax domicile somewhere ? ?
my regards to JL
`
Oct 22nd 2013, 1:04 pm
#14
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Posts: 990
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
I agree with some other posters that it would be fairer for EVERYONE to declare all their assets.Why put the limit at 50,000 euros? Why should someone with assets of, say, 10,000, 40,000 not have to declare? It's a substantial sum.
It's ridiculous that only the acquisition value of houses has to be mentioned.It's like saying that if I had 48,000 years ago I don't need to mention it as of 31st December.A house bought at 25,000 might be worth 200,000 now, a substantial asset, yet the Hacienda doesn't want to know?
I hope the 720 is revised;at present it's unfair, especially the system of draconian fines which should be reserved for blatantly fraudulent asset concealment, not £1 in a long lost Post office savings account which Granny opened when you were born!
How will Spain encourage ex pats to comply with tax laws if it brandishes the stick instead of the carrot all the time?
I have never heard so many people say that they will no longer spend more than 183 days in Spain as I have in this last year! Spain is the loser in this.
It's ridiculous that only the acquisition value of houses has to be mentioned.It's like saying that if I had 48,000 years ago I don't need to mention it as of 31st December.A house bought at 25,000 might be worth 200,000 now, a substantial asset, yet the Hacienda doesn't want to know?
I hope the 720 is revised;at present it's unfair, especially the system of draconian fines which should be reserved for blatantly fraudulent asset concealment, not £1 in a long lost Post office savings account which Granny opened when you were born!
How will Spain encourage ex pats to comply with tax laws if it brandishes the stick instead of the carrot all the time?
I have never heard so many people say that they will no longer spend more than 183 days in Spain as I have in this last year! Spain is the loser in this.
Oct 22nd 2013, 1:38 pm
#15
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 178
Re: Italy leads......Spain follows?
the biggest problem is an over the weekend of the euro and see your euros in yr Spanish bank account (especially if its a Spanish bank ?) be converted immediately into pesetas. then a year later, you would have much more pesetas if your euros had not been immediately converted (say overnight the devaluation is -30% then 6months later as markets rule, the real devaluation is 60%..)
Cyprus was a raid on russian tax evaded money.
Brussels is kicking the can to save the euro and is thus looking yes, at other means to solve (lol) the debt problem. won't work. we don't have a FED printing dollars. given th emess in Europe, the euro should be at parity with the dollar.
Cyprus was a raid on russian tax evaded money.
Brussels is kicking the can to save the euro and is thus looking yes, at other means to solve (lol) the debt problem. won't work. we don't have a FED printing dollars. given th emess in Europe, the euro should be at parity with the dollar.