Installation of ICP - anyone know anything about this?
 

We've received a letter today from our electricity company (Endesa) something to do with insatallation of the 'Controlar la Instalación de Elementos de Control de Potencia' (ICP for short ;) )

It seems to be about buying or renting a piece of equipmet which needs to be installed in the fuse box and then sealed and certified. Does anyone know anything about this at all & enlighten us?

My OH had to go to Correos to sign for the letter. The postman then filled in a form on the bottom half of the letter then got OH to sign it - then postman tore the form off & kept it :confused:

Here's a link to the website on the letter www.endesadistribucion.com/compruebesuicp - any of it make any sense????

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Re: Installation of ICP - anyone know anything about this?
 

We had that done about 2 years ago after buying the house we had to have the meter box changed as part of the new bolitin. after the electrician fitted that few days later endesa came and he ICP in the fuse box or should I say trip box. The ICP is just another trip switch that cuts all the power off if you draw too much electric. If it activates assess what you are using and re set it. It seems to be often tripped when you have quite a bit of electrical equpment on then use the kettle.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Thanks for that Bob :)

The fuse box we already have does that - so what difference does this ICP make?

Also we're still not sure just what it was that the postman filled in and kept - surely he shouldn't have done that :confused:

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

The ICP specifically stops you from drawing TOO much power (from the grid) - that is total power not simply on a specific circuit.. Without it you can draw as much as you want with the possibility of burning out cables (not necessarily in your house)!

If you have one installed, then remove it and the electric company notice, you can be fined BIG time.

ICP's are quite a recent installation so older houses won't have them.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

The reason this is now happening is mainly to get more money from the consumer.

Many houses have a contract for 3.3kw but have no ICP. They frequently draw much more than 3.3kw (for short periods) and have no problems.

What will now happen is that the electricity company will fit an ICP trip corresponding to the present contracted potencia - in this case 3.3Kw.

In many cases this will not be enough and it will trip whenever a high load is used - cooker and washing machine at the same time for example.

So, the user complains to the company and they will come and upgrade the ICP to a higher rating - say 5.5kw and charge extra every month - the standing charge is based on the contracted potencia and is about €2 per kw per month.

The bad news is that they will charge for that upgrade - anything up to €200 from my experience.

So, if you have a contract rated at 3.3kw and no ICP and you think that may not be enough then make sure they change the contract and fit a bigger ICP now.

If you just get a ICP to match your current contract you may get an expensive surprise later.

In my case it cost me over €400 before it got sorted out.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Yes forgot to mention that my potencia was upgrafed at the same as icp fitted to 5.5 stil trips now and again

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Had mine upgraded to 9.5kw two years ago and it cost €150 - hasn't tripped since although I have changed the electric hob to a gas hob to try and reduce the electric bills

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

The reason it is happening now is because The Ministry of industria.........
has ordered the electricity distribution companies to control that their customers have installed (controls de potencia) ICP....power control
or if the customer does not comply they have to apply a surcharge on the following bills.
This order was made in 2005
Real Decreto 1454/2005

The order to make the surcharges was made on the 26 of June 2008
Orden ITC/1857/2008
When you take out a contract with the electricity supplier, or buy a property and change the existing supply in to your name the installation will be inspected and if it is suitable you will get a contract for the Kw you asked for. If not you will have to make changes and eventually the contract you get basically confirms that you instalation is suitable for that amount of consumption. BUT you can consume much more than the amount contracted.
putting in danger of fires your installation and that of your neighbours.
The fitting of an ICP stops you creating this danger and us seeing on television about the pensioners dying in a fire believed to have been caused by a short-circuit.
I have gone through this procedure recently. I bought the box and fitted it on the wall. I bought the ICP and put it in the box with lenghths of cable to make the connections.
I then telephoned a local approved electrician to make the connections.
He charged me 45 euros including some extra bits. The cost of the box and ICP was40 euros. The electricity supplier has to come and seal the box and charge 9,04 euros plus taxes for inspection and connection.

A neighbour of mine who lives in England , was faced with the notification about the ICP when he arrived for holidays.
He spoke in English in the local office of the supplier who quoted him
300 euros to do the job.
When he spoke to me I arranged for the approved electrician to
come and he has cuoted the job complete, except the final 9,04 euros.
will be 50 euros. The conversations were in Spanish.
They maybe going to get more money from the customer
BUT I WILL NOT HAVE TO SEE ON TELEVISION YOUR NEIGHBOUR IS IN
HOSPITAL WITH SMOKE DAMAGE TO HER LUNGS.

SALUDOS ,STAN RODGERS

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Yes, in many cases, especially old installations, there is a risk if they use too much power at any one time.

In my case they just did it for the extra money! I have an installation rated at 25kw and a boletin to prove it - there is very little risk of exceeding that and I certainly could not afford the bills !

As a result of having to having an ICP fitted (which I did not originally have as they specifically would not allow one to be fitted) they have now charged me over €400 for the paperwork (not the labour or cost of installation) and my monthly charge is now over €1/day.

In my case it is not a safety issue - just an excuse to raise more money!

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

As has been said, if Endesa do this work it can cost up to 600euros.
It seems to me that it's only if you have some reason to contact Endesa that this situation arises.
If it does follow Stan Rodgers advice.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

If you want to increase the potencia then you have no option but to pay the exorbitant charges that Endesa charge to change your contract.

If you just want an ICP fitted that corresponds to the contracted potencia then it can be done by a local electrician or by Endesa but that is only for the ICP and labour for fitting.

As I said, they hit your for big money if they have to upgrade your contracted supply, and also if you do not have a current "boletin" for the higher rated supply then a rewire, at considerable expense, may be needed.

In some cases the total cost can be easily in 4 figures.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

All Mains supply cabling will (SHould) be protected independently, by trips or fuse to the correct value to protect the cables, ditto the supply to your house also should be, then your house input point should be be protected by trip then each individual circuit should be protected.

So chances of cabling burning out for this reason is quite low, usual and most common reason for cables burning out is poor connections/connectors.
3.3Kw is very low for domestic supply ( albeit quite common in Spain).
For example an electric kettle (1.5KW), washing machine (1.5KW) and pool pump (1KW) all on at the same time would probably exceed this!!

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Iberdrola have just started delivering letters in our area about fitting icp's. Not the "20 day" warning letters - I guess they come next? The only sanction mentioned is to have to pay for 10kw contracted supply. Since we probably want 7kw anyway, that isn't much of a threat (3kw = about an additional 80 euros per year by my calculations) so I have considered ignoring it. However I have a feeling that there may be other sanctions down the road, fines, or surcharges maybe.

We live in an area where there are a lot of low income spanish families - many in houses with very poor wiring. They will not be able to have an icp fitted because their wiring will not meet the required standard. They won't be able to afford a rewire, or Iberdrolas' exorbitant administrative charges, so they will be hit by the 10kw charge which they simply can't afford.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Just had ours done. 50 Euro for the electrician and 117 Euro for Iberdrola.

Rosemary

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Hi Rosemary
Just out of interest , was the installation compulsory or did you request to have it fitted ?

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Compulsory. We wanted it done a long time ago anyway but we did not request it.

Rosemary

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Did you have to upgrade your supply contract?

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Yes. It was sent through by Iberdrola immediately.

Rosemary

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

I had mine done almost a year ago, in response to a letter from Sevillana Endesa.

It spurred me into having our wiring checked by an electrician and getting the electric meter moved to the outside of the house. Ours is an old house and we knew it wasn't up to scratch, but I had been a bit scared of opening a can of worms and being told we needed a complete rewire which could cost thousands - and lead to a lot more work as all our walls on the ground floor are tiled at least halfway up so that would have had to be redone as well.

However the electrician managed to separate our wiring into 4 circuits, install a new cable for the supply coming into the house and a new distribution box , and move the meter, after which we got a boletin and got a new contract in my own name (the bills had been in my name before, but the contract was still in the previous owner's name, which seems to be quite common). The total cost was 780€ but I feel happier about it now. Then Endesa fitted the ICP which we rent for 60 centimos per month. We had a 3.3 kw contract before, now it is 3.45 kw which I believe is now the minimum you can contract for. It has never tripped since the ICP was fitted, but we do have a gas cooker and no pool!

What is rather galling is that Endesa don't seem to have started charging for the 10 kw supply to those users who haven't had the ICP fitted. But as another poster said, there are many families in my area who would be hard hit by that.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

How much did they charge you to upgrade it?

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Nothing and no mention of it costing.

Rosemary

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

It's actually the same thing.

It's the rating on the ICP trip that is important. You have a 15amp trip.

They used to calculate the wattage on the basis of 220volts. 220 x 15 is 3300 ie 3.3kw.

They now use 230 volts so 230 x 15 is 3.45kw. It's just means they get more money from the standing charge because they use the new calculation!!!

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Fred, Fred, Fred ... error aside, thanks for that. I never knew how they worked it out.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

OMG, whenever I see figures like that my eyes just glaze over - maths never was my strong point.

It certainly seems, as you say, that the elecricity companies are out to wring more money out of consumers any way they can, and ending the monopoly won't change that, as far as I can see. Does anyone know whether the proposed protest to have a mass 'switch-off' at 10pm on
15 February attracted much support?

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Just think if they add Ohm's Law & power factor correction into the calculation they probable could chip the bill up a few more Cents.
I'm sure there are some times the voltage generated is nearer 200

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

CAN'T BE the EU says it has got to be between 220 and 240 from Iceland to Cape Verde and Ireland to Ukraine and Spain is in the middle so it must 230V

:unsure:;):lol:

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

What the EU says & what it does is two different things
Not long ago we were using No 1 photoflood bulbs 275W & they were popping all the time ( admitidately they were cheap foreign imports ) my meter read 245 volts & that was in London
Please don't tell me it is illegal to sell or supply frosted bulbs 100 Watts upwards,that's another law that's ignored @ this moment in time
By the way my meter is manufactured by Robin probable one of the best not a £ 4.99p version

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

I agree. Here where I am in Spain, we've recorded 180V at the lower end and 265V at the higher end.

We complained to Iberdrola about the lower value as it takes weeks to microwave anything:thumbdown: but they just said it was our problem.

We measured it again at the meter - only slightly better. Again we complained and they informed us that we would have to pay for new wiring from the meter to the top of the nearest pole. Once we had done that, they would then be able to investigate further if there was still a problem.

Since when was the wiring "the other side of the meter" our responsibility? ONLY IN SPAIN!

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

I have just come off the phone with Iberdrola, 30 minutes later, and that was after having to find a different number as the one in the letter is no longer working. I opted for the 3cents a month rental of the PCS/ICP as I figured it would take forever to pay the cost of installing one myself.
But instead of being advised I would have to pay the 9.04€ costs as it said in the letter, and because it is recommend to upgrade from 2.200W to either 3.450W or 4.450W it would either cost me 60€ or 100€ plus an extra monthly standing charge, either 2€ more per month or 4€ more per month.
I definitely think this is just a way of robbing us. You really do not have any options, and they will not allow you to spread the cost and could not tell you if you did not take action when they would start charging for the 10.000W standing charge, which would have cost around 15€ more per month. Plus an extra charge for the increase in supply.
What a con...... so for something I thought would cost me approx 10€ with a 2€ increase per month on my bill, I have ended up spending a fortune.
HAVE THEY NOT REALISED THERE IS A RECESSION AT THE MOMENT.
I used to pay by direct debit but I have stopped this also as I do not want any nasty surprises adding to my bill and being taken before I get to see the statement.
So beware if you have not arranged for the limiter to be put on you could end up with around 150€-200€ extra charge on a future statement.

Re: Installation of ICP ?
 

Strange but very strange but true!
When you develop a property you have to provide the final link from their main to your meter. However I assumed having done that they then "adopted" up to their meter since you had to do to their standards using an acceptable contractor. Seems like they don't.