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'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Old Aug 30th 2012, 10:31 am
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Default 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

AUAN is helping to promote a community petition for change created via AVAAZ, the online campaigning community to:
“Restore responsible buying and selling of property within the European context. Restore the fundamental rights of citizens to move house as life dictates and not have assets effectively frozen like criminals”
Link to Petition Here

Why this is important
Thousands of people,Spaniards and immigrants throughout Spain, but, especially Andalucía, have their property threatened with demolition or other penalties despite having bought in GOOD FAITH through the supposed Spanish legal system. The Regional and Madrid governments have no desire to reform the system and delays in the legal system deny access to justice.
The European Commission denies human/fundamental rights violations and states that the matter is not within European Law despite many well presented petitions and initial ideals of mobility of assets and people across borders..
The Madrid government desires economic aid from Europe but cannot fix problems like this created by the Regional government that retard the construction industry, incoming tourism, and hence damage the employment and local economies of this beautiful region.
The British Government cannot or will not help its expat citizens within the European context.
Many people caught in this corrupt housing planning trap are retired citizens without the time expectancy of decades to resolve the problem.
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 10:51 am
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

I thought the PP had just legalised most of these "illegal houses"? It was on the news the other week. They have legalised 10,000s of them

Of course, if the PSOE get back in, then there'll probably become illegal again
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 11:17 am
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

They havent legalised any around here. In fact the town plan has just been thrown out so not many of us know our status anyway, unless we live in the centre of town. The new town plan, I believe, will be ready is a couple of years.
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 11:54 am
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

They've not legalised them, they have made some of them 'alegal' (a word which doesn't exist) or 'regularised'. This may mean the owners get electricity and water, but not a full escritura with rights to improve or sell.
It's not just the many tens of thousands of British owners who are put into this terrible position, most of them elderly and due some relaxation and retirement, but the Spanish economy which has suffered. Who, having seen 'Paradise Lost' (for example), the ITV show shown, so far, 24 times on British television since 2008, would buy a house and bring foreign exchange to Spain?
When will Len and Helen Prior, who have lived in the ruins of their home in Vera since January 2008, get restitution?
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 12:20 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by Lenox View Post
They've not legalised them, they have made some of them 'alegal' (a word which doesn't exist) or 'regularised'. This may mean the owners get electricity and water, but not a full escritura with rights to improve or sell.
It's not just the many tens of thousands of British owners who are put into this terrible position, most of them elderly and due some relaxation and retirement, but the Spanish economy which has suffered. Who, having seen 'Paradise Lost' (for example), the ITV show shown, so far, 24 times on British television since 2008, would buy a house and bring foreign exchange to Spain?
When will Len and Helen Prior, who have lived in the ruins of their home in Vera since January 2008, get restitution?
Here's an interesting article

http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...01_218313.html

From skimming through that, it looks like the goverment are most definitely tackling the issues. Not that I actually agree with them

But no, lets trot out poor old Len and Helen again. 30 million properties in Spain and 1 (illegal) demolition due to an idiotic alcalde..
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 12:24 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Only 1 demolished but around 25,000 unsellable
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

En enero pasado, la Junta de Andalucía, del PSOE, aprobó un decreto que daba “reconocimiento jurídico” a entre 300.000 y 350.000 viviendas aisladas. “Son viviendas que no pueden ser demolidas ni legalizadas”, explicó la entonces consejera de Obras Públicas, Josefina Cruz Villalón.
From Cricketman's El País article
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:27 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by Lenox View Post
En enero pasado, la Junta de Andalucía, del PSOE, aprobó un decreto que daba “reconocimiento jurídico” a entre 300.000 y 350.000 viviendas aisladas. “Son viviendas que no pueden ser demolidas ni legalizadas”, explicó la entonces consejera de Obras Públicas, Josefina Cruz Villalón.
From Cricketman's El País article
Ah well done, you read the article more carefully then I did

Here is a serious question. It was the local governments that declared the property as legal while all along it was pretty easy to check whether the property was legal or not according to national law e.g. the "ley de suelo" and "ley de costas" couldnt be any more straight forward

I can see how people got fooled by the corrupt local governments/ayuntamientos, but a lawyer would (or should) have warned a buyer that the land/property was illegal according to national law. And national law always triumphs over local laws

So who is responsible? For me, it isnt the national goverment. The case should be brought before the local governments or the lawyers for giving false advice

Is that the situation?
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:38 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

In many cases the law was applied retrospectively. I do agree though in a lot of cases the lawyers were negligent.

One day when the British pensioners in those houses are dead, they will be sold for a pittance to Spaniards and in no time at all they will all become legal...ready to sell on to the Brits again
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 1:46 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Well, a highly paid notario is meant to oversee and rubric a title deed. So, perhaps his responsibility.
I can't believe, however, that the local town halls should be found guilty. Guilty of bringing much-needed investment into their municipality (remember, Almería and Cádiz are both at 35% unemployment)? What should they do?
But - forget the huge number of ripped-off Brits. Forget the Priors. Just think of this - Andalucía is now broke. Thanks to their absurd policy of frightening off investment. Broke - and the demand for homes, new or re-sale, is por los suelos. So is the value of all of our homes. Thanks to the Junta de Andalucía.
Now, please sign the petition
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 3:27 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
Ah well done, you read the article more carefully then I did

Here is a serious question. It was the local governments that declared the property as legal while all along it was pretty easy to check whether the property was legal or not according to national law e.g. the "ley de suelo" and "ley de costas" couldnt be any more straight forward

I can see how people got fooled by the corrupt local governments/ayuntamientos, but a lawyer would (or should) have warned a buyer that the land/property was illegal according to national law. And national law always triumphs over local laws

So who is responsible? For me, it isnt the national goverment. The case should be brought before the local governments or the lawyers for giving false advice

Is that the situation?
You have missed out the most important part of the process - regional government.

It was the Junta de Alndalucia who decided that the building licence issued by the local Ayuntamiento planning department was invalid based on the Ley de Suelo (applicable only to Andalucia) issued by the Junta in 2002, not by national government.

Last edited by Fred James; Aug 30th 2012 at 3:29 pm.
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 3:50 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by Fred James View Post
You have missed out the most important part of the process - regional government.

It was the Junta de Alndalucia who decided that the building licence issued by the local Ayuntamiento planning department was invalid based on the Ley de Suelo (applicable only to Andalucia) issued by the Junta in 2002, not by national government.
The Ley de suelo applies to the whole of Spain. Wikipedia can help you if you like

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_del...de_Espa%C3%B1a

It could be that Andalucia made an addendum in 2002, I dont know

But you are right, the regional government adds a further layer of complexity
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 3:54 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
The Ley de suelo applies to the whole of Spain. Wikipedia can help you if you like

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_del...de_Espa%C3%B1a

It could be that Andalucia made an addendum in 2002, I dont know

But you are right, the regional government adds a further layer of complexity
I am well aware of the national law but the Junta passed a new law which effectively overrides most of it.


Ley 7/2002, de 17 de diciembre, de Ordenación Urbanística de Andalucía.

http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_d...n-l7-2002.html
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

Originally Posted by Fred James View Post
I am well aware of the national law but the Junta passed a new law which effectively overrides most of it.


Ley 7/2002, de 17 de diciembre, de Ordenación Urbanística de Andalucía.

http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_d...n-l7-2002.html
Local law cannot override national law

It is the very principle of the Spanish state and would breach the constitution

Any lawyer could tell you that
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Old Aug 30th 2012, 4:54 pm
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Default Re: 'Illegal Houses in Andalucía' Petition

I suggest you read the preamble to the law before making that statement.

It clearly describes where it fits in with the very old national law and the constitution and why they introduced it.

Any lawyer would know that.

And more to the point it is that law that applies in Andalucia in addition to any other points contained in the national law.

Last edited by Fred James; Aug 30th 2012 at 5:27 pm.
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