soyrosa

[QUOTE=Fiberite;12544003]So, at last we have some hard facts, commercial enterprises cannot operate from residential premises. However, I am sure this would have been overlooked if the bloke next door ( and probably his lacky lawer) had not raised the issue. [QUOTE]
This is true, they don't oppose to business (or so they say) as long as there are no complaints (denuncias)


[ QUOTE] So, should we not be campaigning , probably through CERA, to make it attractive for businesses to open up premises in the only built designated commercial area at the top of the hill. Surely if one dodgy operater can get away with it others can. [QUOTE]
According to town hall the aforementioned business has all the licences required. Or so they said. How can anyone without a tenancy contract have rights to open a business in premises belonging to someone else? And why did the powers to be, asked Lolo his tenancy agreement but they told us they don't need to see a tenancy contract to issue the licences? Very strange.

[QUITE]What exactly stops them doing so ? [QUOTE]
these properties have recently been reposesed by the bank (fact) Maybe all the paperwork was not ready till now? (Me guessing)

also, if the club house was always intended for the exclusive use of the villa owners as suggested, how come the Town hall issued 2 opening licences to 2 different business? Both also with many denuncias from someone we all know, and they never shut the place down in 2 weeks, did they?The current tenant was told in the Town hall (nothing in writing unfortunatelly) he could open a social club and 2 weeks later they shut it down. If that's not weird I don't know what is.
The reason?residential land and different secretary and different interpretation of what is allowed in a social club and that's that. Who cares about Esuri and who cares about the people losing their job?
but it will be interesting to see if any other business in residential land is given the ok to open. I sure hope so regardless as I would ike to have more facilities in the area.

EsuriJohn

Ken and Tina

I have had a property is CE for 10 years now, so have been around long enough to have seen a fair bit of what has been going on in the area, as well as a bit of history behind Jags/Hoyo19, and have tried to keep away from this thread, as everyone has been saying how disappointing this is, and its clearly denying a lot of people a lot of enjoyment.
Having said that, if the Town Hall/Council/Mayor/whoever, are saying Hoyo19 was always supposed to be just a social club for the use of the villa owners and no commercial transaction can be done in the premises – surely a “social club” will always have a level of commercial interest/activity attached to it, as if not, how would they survive without income. As I understand it, “originally” is was intimated that the villa owners would pay a small amount monthly which would entitle them to use the “social club”, so there is a level of “commercial’ness” there?, and a property of that size would not be able to survive or function, without additional funds, could it ?. So I’m assuming further commercial input would need to be provided, yet “no commercial transaction can be done in the premises” !. Seems to be a level of contradiction here, or clearly the powers that be can do/say whatever they want, to satisfy ……whatever suits them?.
On a similar note, if “no commercial transaction can be done in residential premises”, how does a local estate agent continue to function from an apartment in Vista Esuri ?. Perhaps the Town Hall/Council/Mayor could advise ?.

Jon-Bxl

I agree John, this is all very 'fishy'. I am not convinced about this sorry state of affaires... and can you believe in this thread for the first time in years I have even gone public and said I DONT blame the town hall! I knew it was all over in my gut when it was closed down.. and then we got nothing from 19h who took over 500 email addresses. I helped a couple of friends sign up at the 19h - their number was well over 500.

However I'm flogging a dead horse - though I am not 'rolling over' I know its time to move on for me for this issue. Its all over and hundreds of people have lost, CE has lost. We remain a huge development with a year round reasonable minimum of residents .. peaked by high season for sun lovers and then the golfers coming in cooler times. Those may have a nice 'wallet/budget' to spend on fun stuff and socialising. A good mix of Spanish too - who were prepared to attend the recent demonstration.

I just look across the water and see how successful a small village like Monte Francisco can be... and then look at CE and see how for the last 15 years, of my involvement, we have been continually let down.

I asked previously if these denuncias were in the public domain. We hear that a local business owner signed one of the denuncias so I suppose we know who complained. For commercial reasons he or she or they may have had a point - though perhaps a short term measure?. I.e shut down the competition - who is not operating legally. We cant afford any more losses on CE - but I fear this may be a short term gain for him/her/them, as there are some very upset people who may decide to withdraw a lot of their business. That could have a serious knock on effect for us.

There's room for so much more in CE.... One is dead ... The other looks like its having big problems. If they are ready to open and now have to wait till April 2019.... and even then may not get permissions - its awful. For everybody.

But - behind it all - we are therefore more likely to leave CE e.g to eat and drink, so Portugal takes a big slice of that money.. as does Ayamonte and surroundings. Hmmm that's a thought!

A lesson any 'old timer' of CE will know.... Do the full legal due diligence and get the paperwork signed up .. don't trust verbal promises......Before doing anything in CE. Some people may know a way around the 'system'... but there is always a risk... a huge one as we have seen

What a mess .......

Jon feeling sad!

soyrosa

According to the information we were given by Mr Correa, there are 7 ploys I closing the new restaurant (This was added afterwards ) that have been included in the change of land denomination to comercial use. This process started 5 years ago and still has not been granted by the Junta. The town hall/ council /mayor have no jurisdiction to make the change. They just authorise it to go forwards to the Junta. Hoyo 19 cannot be added to this, as it is not in a corner plot.


answering about the lack of communication from Lolo , we must give him some slack. He has been dealing with lots of issues himself. Having to pay bills and staff with a shut down business cannot be fun. He has been looking for a new venue and getting it ready to open this week as he needs to keep earning. Yes, I know an email takes 2 minutes but he is still hoping something can be done.


regarding social club and what can or can't be use for: the owners can have parties and invite friends. But no charges can be made to make a profit. The exact words from Mr Correa was: we have to think the social club is an extension of our garden. And use it the same way you would use your garden, you can swim I the pool, you can have a bbq , you can meet with friends but you can't ask people for money or sell anything. And it is right, that might not be a viable option for the owners, but if that's decided the way to go, me personally I'm inviting the whole Esuri to come and join me to a nice big party. Just bring your drink and nibbles and let's make some noise!

keithBT

Clearly, the town hall and councillors of Ayamonte have no interest in the provision of basic amenities on CE. Despite paying our council taxes each year we have to have the EUC in addition just to maintain the roads and sidewalks. I fail to see what we receive back in benefits to the community in return for the payment of our council taxes. They cannot even provide street lighting from the Mway to the CE bridge !! Hark back to PRE Fadesa & CE and Ayamonte council would have had to balance their budgets to operate the town via taxes from just Ayamonte Town. Fast forward ten plus years and loads of income floods in from CE, but with minimal additional expenditure. Where does all the money go? Properties on CE are charged premium rates of council tax compared to within the town of Ayamonte and hence I suppose that CE taxes effectively underwrite and supports Ayamonte Town. The town hall should be loaded with cash , but in fact I believe it is running a huge deficit. If I understand correctly, - the commercial units beside the shop have been empty since construction but owe a fortune in back taxes simply due to their presence even though no commercial activity has taken place, hence no one can afford to open a business there. The back taxes get bigger every year hence ultimately they become a white elephant. The only way we are going to get the council to withdraw their obstinate obsession in collecting these back taxes is to put pressure on the town hall. There is one sure fire way of doing this and that is to temporarily withhold payment of our CE council tax. I have no idea how much tax CE generates in compared to the town of Ayamonte but it must be a sizeable chunk. We could cripple the town hall until they actually WANT to listen to us by which I mean CERA. CE is merely a satellite cash cow to Ayamonte that brings lots of business into the shops, bars, restos, abogados etc in town. WHY should they care what facilities we have within CE. We will never make them listen until they are forced to. By withholding taxes, they can either listen to us OR they will have to commence proceedings on all residents to get their taxes. Both ways means they have to go a long time without income. It will hurt them big time. When they cannot afford to pay the teachers or the refuse collectors the local town population will kick up and ask we we no longer subsidise the town. PS, Did the town hall really get a load of taxes from the sale of the hotel ? Did the sale really take place. Has anyone seen any surveyor types assessing what needs to be done to complete the hotel ? Going back to the taxes - even the threat of such action by cera might possibly be enough. Maybe we should have an online referendum to see what support might be aroused to temporarily withold taxes. Lets face it, we've been fobbed off ever since the financial crash of ten years ago.

Fiberite

Now you are talking . What we need is some Trump style negotiation with the Town hall. If Cera are unable or unwilling to do this perhaps we should set up a new residents group to take them on.

Jon-Bxl

Quick question. We've had discussions previously about the tax authorities access to our bank accounts. Many of us have direct debits for eg EUC and Ghiasa from the tributaria. So the authorities know .. does that mean they can take the money anyway?. In previous discussions they have a lot of power.
Jon

Jon-Bxl

CERA is operated by great people voluntarily giving up their personal time to help the community as a whole. They are involved in loads of things from the bus, footy tournaments, fiestas, petanque, meeting mayor etc etc etc.

There is a lot of work involved to run an association to meet the diverse needs of this big community. We are all p***ed off with the recent evens, but I would suggest that we don't point fingers internally. Any new organisation would take ages to setup. And in the end they will still also need committed volunteers to handle all these needs.

If there is a groundswell for this (and that will need a lot of organising and planning) - perhaps a group of new volunteers can ask if it is possible to join CERA to take on this part of the activity. If all could agree perhaps this would be easier than another new association. Firstly I suggest you canvas the community to see if enough people are even interested in taking this action. I suspect in the end many people wont want to be in debt to the authorities - the reality of this maybe harder to achieve than the idea. I don't know

Jon

keithBT

The trouble is Jon, many of us (myself included ) are only at CE for 8 weeks a year. I think we need to support cera as much as they need, doing whatever we can. At this present time they are our only means of negotiating with the council. I cannot see a new organisation would help the cause unless it is lead by Donald Trump. lol.

Jon-Bxl

Thanks Keith - we agree about the CERA and I know you are not here all the time. That's why in reply to your post I asked only about the banking rules.

Organising a 'taxpayer revolution' is a huge project. But if the Tributaria can take the money anyway, its dead in the water IMO (sorry)

I don't know and so this question remains open. If there is a way around this ... then lets understand what's involved. Lets understand if people will even consider to sign up in numbers to being in default of taxes. If so there is a valid proposition going forward.

I then responded to Fiberites post .. and made my support for CERA.. Ive seen many posts asking for CERA to 'do something'. They will with the proper, thought out, and accepted, proposal.

Ideas for starting a new residents Association - aren't going to work either. IMO. The work involved to do that, to find people, to make it legal etc.... and the TIME it takes.............. blows it out of the water. (IMO). Especially when I cant (personally) see any reason for changing ....

That's why I suggested that those that want to take this step, organise, figure out the questions above, then work with CERA and offer their services and advice , rather than start a new organisation. Maybe it wont work, but its a better first step in my opinion... But I freely admit, my opinion may be worth nothing in the weird world of CE and the town hall!

Jon

Fiberite

Ok , so my comment about starting a new pressure group or organisation was due to my frustration with CERA only getting involved with buses , football and car park parties etc. What we need Cera to do is be more proactive and beligerent , to take the gloves off and take on the BIG issues on Esuri. I, like Keith only come to Esuri sporadicaly but have owned a property and paid taxes for fourteen years and seen nothing in return. There are an enormous amount of people fed up to the teeth with the situation we are in , not just us Brits. Can we have a response on this forum from senior members of CERA about what they propose to do , after all I and I am sure most of you pay your annual membership fee. They may be good and nice people but what are they doing to take the town hall to task about our abysmal sitiuation. People accross the world let alone Europe are standing up and saying NO to the stataus Quo. We need to rally the troops of Esuri of all nationalities to do the same and get a better deal.

Fredbargate

Start a campaign asking CE residents to shop and eat in Portugal thus depriving Ayamonte businesses of your money.
Inform the businesses and mayor of Ayamonte that you are doing this and why.

neil77

Regarding paying euc, taxes etc by direct debit......direct debits can be cancelled and the option to pay upon receipt of invoice [or not in this case] is ours, we dont have to pay these taxes by d.d. I dont, I pay them when I get the invoice/bill.
I think a mass cancellation of loads of direct debits for euc and other taxes etc..would soon be known in the town hall, and that in itself might make them sit up and think, but together with informing them that we have done this for our reasons would certainly make them take notice. They need those taxes off us.

EsuriJohn