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help!!!! please

help!!!! please

Old Feb 13th 2006, 5:30 am
  #1  
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Default help!!!! please

please can anyone give me any advice..
if buying a villa and your solicitor said that the villa was..
on No Urbanizable land (this means not allowed to build) and the villa was extended and town hall put the villa on denounce and a fee was paid for this. the villa was built without permission,hasnt got a certificate of habitation.it is very common in the villas area for this but....the property is registered and does this give some kind of legality on this villa?
sorry if all this is confused but we have bought such a villa and are due to move out next week to spain. I remembered this e mail fm my solicitor fm 2 years ago and at the time thought "oh this should be okay" and forgot it.
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Old Feb 13th 2006, 7:20 am
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
please can anyone give me any advice..
if buying a villa and your solicitor said that the villa was..
on No Urbanizable land (this means not allowed to build) and the villa was extended and town hall put the villa on denounce and a fee was paid for this. the villa was built without permission,hasnt got a certificate of habitation.it is very common in the villas area for this but....the property is registered and does this give some kind of legality on this villa?
sorry if all this is confused but we have bought such a villa and are due to move out next week to spain. I remembered this e mail fm my solicitor fm 2 years ago and at the time thought "oh this should be okay" and forgot it.
Sure someone else on here will respond in a more considered manner, but...when you say denounce and a fee was paid...do you mean a fine ?? I was buying a country property near Algondondonales and it was unregistered and not on the deeds. The vendor declared it was over 5 years old and got an architect to verify it and it was legalised and put on the deeds.The solicitor was happy and then told us it was OK to go ahead. It fell through for unrelated reasons. If it was two years ago then why worry ?? My understanding is that a certificate of habitation is not always necessary...I was told recently that they are usually issued when properties are built with planning permission and architects regular inspections through the building stages as legally required etc.
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Old Feb 13th 2006, 12:50 pm
  #3  
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
please can anyone give me any advice..
if buying a villa and your solicitor said that the villa was..
on No Urbanizable land (this means not allowed to build) and the villa was extended and town hall put the villa on denounce and a fee was paid for this. the villa was built without permission,hasnt got a certificate of habitation.it is very common in the villas area for this but....the property is registered and does this give some kind of legality on this villa?
sorry if all this is confused but we have bought such a villa and are due to move out next week to spain. I remembered this e mail fm my solicitor fm 2 years ago and at the time thought "oh this should be okay" and forgot it.
Have you got two separate issues here? No permission to build dwellings on the land and no planning permission for the extension that was subsequently made to it (reading between your lines)? Sounds like the latter was resolved with a fine (but you should still get an appropriate deed registered - declaracion de obra nueva, I believe).

Or do you have the paperwork for the original villa build, but it is the extension that breaches the "no urbanizable" decree? i.e. the latter was put in place after the villa was built.
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Old Feb 14th 2006, 6:39 am
  #4  
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by Unexpat
Have you got two separate issues here? No permission to build dwellings on the land and no planning permission for the extension that was subsequently made to it (reading between your lines)? Sounds like the latter was resolved with a fine (but you should still get an appropriate deed registered - declaracion de obra nueva, I believe).

Or do you have the paperwork for the original villa build, but it is the extension that breaches the "no urbanizable" decree? i.e. the latter was put in place after the villa was built.
hi, thanks for your replies, this is the e mail i got fm my solicitor..
i have rcd fm vendors a copy fm the deeds of de declaration of the building,this was done in 2002 and has been finally registered into land registry 2004.
the construction of the property according to the certification of the architect was done around the year 2000, the plot of land where it is based is qualified as "no urbanizable" this means is not allowed to build, they did not get permission fm town hall because your plot is only 2000 sqare metres.
also i have been searching into the "catastro" and appears only the plot without the house, it seems that the modification of the same was presented om october 2003, and it hasnt gone thru yet.
also the property was extended, and the town hall put them a denounce, and this has been paid by them already.
what we have is a house that was built without permission, that hasnt got a certificate of habitation, it has no possiblitiy to extend, and its not going to be affected by future plans because the land where it is istuated is "no urbanizable" . what is your legal position... this situation is very common in this area, what we have on the property is that the property is already registed into the land registry, and there are lots of them that are not registered, this gives some kind of legality to te property. end....
SORRY FOR BEING SOOO LONG WINDED..........
what do you think this sounds like, does it sound okay.... thanks for any replies
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Old Feb 14th 2006, 7:25 am
  #5  
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
hi, thanks for your replies, this is the e mail i got fm my solicitor..
i have rcd fm vendors a copy fm the deeds of de declaration of the building,this was done in 2002 and has been finally registered into land registry 2004.
the construction of the property according to the certification of the architect was done around the year 2000, the plot of land where it is based is qualified as "no urbanizable" this means is not allowed to build, they did not get permission fm town hall because your plot is only 2000 sqare metres.
also i have been searching into the "catastro" and appears only the plot without the house, it seems that the modification of the same was presented om october 2003, and it hasnt gone thru yet.
also the property was extended, and the town hall put them a denounce, and this has been paid by them already.
what we have is a house that was built without permission, that hasnt got a certificate of habitation, it has no possiblitiy to extend, and its not going to be affected by future plans because the land where it is istuated is "no urbanizable" . what is your legal position... this situation is very common in this area, what we have on the property is that the property is already registed into the land registry, and there are lots of them that are not registered, this gives some kind of legality to te property. end....
SORRY FOR BEING SOOO LONG WINDED..........
what do you think this sounds like, does it sound okay.... thanks for any replies
Hello patsywhitehair,

IMO I would have steered clear of this after I had got the letter/email, from the lawer, this sounds like the Denounica was issued to the owner of the property and a fine was payed, but the denounica still stands, The law in this country is that no houses can be built on less than 10,000 m2. (except on urbanizable land) as this plot was NOT urbanizable NO building should have been built, or planning permmission should have been given.

You should have been told this by your lawer, in Spain the lawer can and often does work for both buyer and vendor, so there is IMO a conflict of interests, and this is where problems occur. I am sorry that this may be bad news for you, but more research should have gone into buying property abroad.

I do hope you resolve this matter.

David SR
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Old Feb 14th 2006, 8:04 am
  #6  
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
hi, thanks for your replies, this is the e mail i got fm my solicitor..
i have rcd fm vendors a copy fm the deeds of de declaration of the building,this was done in 2002 and has been finally registered into land registry 2004.
the construction of the property according to the certification of the architect was done around the year 2000, the plot of land where it is based is qualified as "no urbanizable" this means is not allowed to build, they did not get permission fm town hall because your plot is only 2000 sqare metres.
also i have been searching into the "catastro" and appears only the plot without the house, it seems that the modification of the same was presented om october 2003, and it hasnt gone thru yet.
also the property was extended, and the town hall put them a denounce, and this has been paid by them already.
what we have is a house that was built without permission, that hasnt got a certificate of habitation, it has no possiblitiy to extend, and its not going to be affected by future plans because the land where it is istuated is "no urbanizable" . what is your legal position... this situation is very common in this area, what we have on the property is that the property is already registed into the land registry, and there are lots of them that are not registered, this gives some kind of legality to te property. end....
SORRY FOR BEING SOOO LONG WINDED..........
what do you think this sounds like, does it sound okay.... thanks for any replies
If you are moving out there very soon, what is the point of worrying about it now, unless you have the possibility of an exit strategy ??? The property that fell thru that I mentioned was similar in that only the land was mentioned not the house, and the lawyer in Jerez would not let us proceed until he was satisfied that the house was on the deeds as well.
If there are plenty of other houses in the area in a similar situation it doesn't sound like they are going to start demolishing them. The British way of everything being cut and dried just doesn't apply in Spain.
Chatting to a nice couple in the local bar where I eventually bought, they had been advised to get various forms etc to pay the council tax, bore the cost of a full survey, but when they eventually went to the town hall, they were told it wasn't necessary and they could have saved all that money. My agent just said there was such a back log that it would be at least two yeards before we got a bill, and so we are just sitting back and waiting......
relax and look forward to the lovely weather.
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Old Feb 14th 2006, 1:13 pm
  #7  
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
hi, thanks for your replies, this is the e mail i got fm my solicitor..
i have rcd fm vendors a copy fm the deeds of de declaration of the building,this was done in 2002 and has been finally registered into land registry 2004.
the construction of the property according to the certification of the architect was done around the year 2000, the plot of land where it is based is qualified as "no urbanizable" this means is not allowed to build, they did not get permission fm town hall because your plot is only 2000 sqare metres.
also i have been searching into the "catastro" and appears only the plot without the house, it seems that the modification of the same was presented om october 2003, and it hasnt gone thru yet.
also the property was extended, and the town hall put them a denounce, and this has been paid by them already.
what we have is a house that was built without permission, that hasnt got a certificate of habitation, it has no possiblitiy to extend, and its not going to be affected by future plans because the land where it is istuated is "no urbanizable" . what is your legal position... this situation is very common in this area, what we have on the property is that the property is already registed into the land registry, and there are lots of them that are not registered, this gives some kind of legality to te property. end....
SORRY FOR BEING SOOO LONG WINDED..........
what do you think this sounds like, does it sound okay.... thanks for any replies
Is your solicitor English, or Spanish? I can't make out the full meaning of your transcription of their letter. The bit I'm having difficulty with is "they did not get permission fm town hall because your plot is only 2000 sqare metres".

Is that saying that "they should have got permission, because your plot is only 2000 m2, but did not", or "they didn't need permission because your plot is only 2000 m2"?

IMO, worst case scenario is that you'd be forced to demolish the property, although if there are several in the same boat, it's unlikely to happen unless you put the local council's nose out of joint. Tread carefully around the Mayor and council officials (seriously), they can make your life hell when you are not on solid ground.

You might want to consider what the loss in demolishing the property would be and weigh that up against the risk. If you are already committed, you might consider seeking the services of a gestor to see what can be done to mitigate the risk, in the first instance. Can you buy adjacent plots of land, etc?
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Old Feb 15th 2006, 4:29 pm
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by patsywhitehair
please can anyone give me any advice..
if buying a villa and your solicitor said that the villa was..
on No Urbanizable land (this means not allowed to build) and the villa was extended and town hall put the villa on denounce and a fee was paid for this. the villa was built without permission,hasnt got a certificate of habitation.it is very common in the villas area for this but....the property is registered and does this give some kind of legality on this villa?
sorry if all this is confused but we have bought such a villa and are due to move out next week to spain. I remembered this e mail fm my solicitor fm 2 years ago and at the time thought "oh this should be okay" and forgot it.
Further to other comments,
It really depends on your local town hall, some areas are tackling the problem of Illegal builds VERY seriously, the town hall of ELCHE have started knocking down properties that are illegal.
Some people will tell you that you pay a fine and everything will be fine THIS IS NOT the case.
You may well pay a 10,000Euro fine that is for the illegal build. IT does NOT clear the slate.
Moreover they will CHARGE you for knocking down your property…….If you do not pay the will put a charge against the land that you own, so when you try to sell the land their will be a debt against it.
Some areas are NOT quite as tough as Elche (Costa Blanca)
Remember you should on build on land which is over 10,000m2 (I’m sure this as been covered many times here before)
Back in January 2005 I was privileged to read a fax from the big guys in Valencia to all the notaries, water and electric companies that they should not supply utilities to any property that had been built illegally, and that THEY the utility companies would be fined big style. That’s why the utility companies are reluctant to connect a supply.
As stated IF the property is over or looks over 5 years of age you can get an architect to confirm this and put it on a obra nueva (NEW WORKS)
The Obra Nueva will then be incorporated in your new Escritura


I also believe that the fact that you DO NOT have a certificate of habitation will also cause a problem with the utility companies.
Sorry, but I would have a serious word with your Solicitor and ask him/her why they did not inform you of the dangers of buying such a property
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Old Feb 15th 2006, 5:45 pm
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Originally Posted by gazzza
Further to other comments,
It really depends on your local town hall, some areas are tackling the problem of Illegal builds VERY seriously, the town hall of ELCHE have started knocking down properties that are illegal.
Some people will tell you that you pay a fine and everything will be fine THIS IS NOT the case.
You may well pay a 10,000Euro fine that is for the illegal build. IT does NOT clear the slate.
Moreover they will CHARGE you for knocking down your property…….If you do not pay the will put a charge against the land that you own, so when you try to sell the land their will be a debt against it.
Some areas are NOT quite as tough as Elche (Costa Blanca)
Remember you should on build on land which is over 10,000m2 (I’m sure this as been covered many times here before)
Back in January 2005 I was privileged to read a fax from the big guys in Valencia to all the notaries, water and electric companies that they should not supply utilities to any property that had been built illegally, and that THEY the utility companies would be fined big style. That’s why the utility companies are reluctant to connect a supply.
As stated IF the property is over or looks over 5 years of age you can get an architect to confirm this and put it on a obra nueva (NEW WORKS)
The Obra Nueva will then be incorporated in your new Escritura


I also believe that the fact that you DO NOT have a certificate of habitation will also cause a problem with the utility companies.
Sorry, but I would have a serious word with your Solicitor and ask him/her why they did not inform you of the dangers of buying such a property
I am sure that what you are saying is true, but perhaps it varies from area to area?? In Chiclana the minimum plot size has been changing, and the last I heard was that it was a minimum of 2000sq m. There is also the business of the horizontal divide.
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Old Feb 16th 2006, 8:27 am
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Default Re: help!!!! please

Regarding Certificate of Habitation: I bought a brand new apartment and some community owners added on winter gardens without permission, prior to the Certificate of Habitation being issued. This meant that the town hall would not issue a certificate as the "gardens" were illegal and so we had to wait for two years until the owners finally dismantled the glazing. During this time we were unable to get water and electricity connected and so were on builder's supply from an adjoining site. I am sure that during this time, apartments in the community were bought and sold, so I am not convinced that not having a cert. of hab. would be a bar to selling.
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Old Feb 16th 2006, 8:50 am
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Default Re: help!!!! please

It wouldn't be a bar to selling but as you've pointed out, it is a bar to getting utilities connected which may be the bar to selling.

Having unknowingly bought such a house and having to bear the hassle and cost of sorting it out, I would never do so again.
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