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-   -   Health insurance and Tax (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/health-insurance-tax-915541/)

3robinsons Jul 31st 2018 5:19 pm

Health insurance and Tax
 
hi, we intend to retire early and hope to move to Spain next year. We will have a private pension and have a couple of questions......

do we need private health insurance or if we choose to pay tax in Spain would this allow us to access the Spanish healthcare system?
Is it cheaper/easier to pay our tax in Spain or to the UK?
any recommendations for health care insurance, and any pitfalls to look out for?

thanks in advance, this forum is a mine of information 👍

bobd22 Jul 31st 2018 6:12 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Health care depends on your age. Currently and post Brexit with an agreement on leaving EU, if you or one of you is state pension age you can obtain an S1 from UK DWP that entitles you to health care in Spain. Paying tax in Spain or UK is not a choice you make, if you live in Spain more than 183 days in the year you should pay tax to Spain (lots of threads in the subject). Paying tax in Spain does not entitle you to free health care. If you are below state pension age you will need private health care and if you wish to obtain legal residency in Spain you will need to prove you have this or an S1. I suggest reading through previous threads as all the information you require has been duscuseed previously.

Fred James Jul 31st 2018 9:44 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
As of last week, every resident in Spain is entitled to free health care. It is possible that it will take some time before the local offices that control residency get to know about it.

tebo53 Aug 1st 2018 5:38 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
There is a version in Spanish that explains everything It also states that you will need to pay 40% cost of the meds.

https://www.plantadoce.com/publico/la-sanidad-universal-regresa-a-espana-despues-de-seis-anos.html

It says that healthcare will be available free to legal residents. So does that mean you will need to prove you have healthcare initially or don t they ask about healthcare when you apply for residencia?

Steve

spainrico Aug 1st 2018 6:34 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Loads more useful information here

https://www.gov.uk/world/living-in-spain

Fred James Aug 1st 2018 6:38 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
I shouldn't think anyone involved in the foreigner registration process has the slightest idea. It usually takes ages for the information to filter down to the guy with the rubber stamp.

stevesainty Aug 1st 2018 9:03 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by tebo53 (Post 12541580)
There is a version in Spanish that explains everything It also states that you will need to pay 40% cost of the meds.

https://www.plantadoce.com/publico/l...seis-anos.html

It says that healthcare will be available free to legal residents. So does that mean you will need to prove you have healthcare initially or don t they ask about healthcare when you apply for residencia?

Steve

https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ml&prev=search

it has been determined that foreigners not registered or authorized as residents in Spain must pay 40% of the price of medicines and medical devices they need.



The 40% charge is only for the totally unrecorded/unregistered not for Spanish nationals or those who are legally registered and residents.

bobd22 Aug 1st 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
We had a thread re the new changes the other week. I thought that those from within EU including UK were still expected to comply with bilateral EU conditions i.e. S1 and private if below state pension age? Bit confused myself now. I thought the recent Spanish changes were more for migrants from out with the EU?

spainrico Aug 1st 2018 5:33 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
No, exact opposite if you read the article from the above link - an extract

"all persons with Spanish nationality and foreigners who have established their residence in Spanish territory."

bobd22 Aug 1st 2018 5:43 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
I'm still confused as I'm not sure it is in saying what you imply? It goes on in that link to say the following (which I have copied direct" of course it may be down to translation?

"​​​​​​​ the document approved today maintains that "not compromise the financial sustainability of the National Health System" , since criteria are established to avoid the inappropriate use of the right to healthcare, such as that assistance will be charged to public funds provided that there is no third party obliged to pay; that there is no obligation to prove compulsory coverage by other means; or that you can not export the right to health coverage from your country of origin or provenance."

Fred James Aug 1st 2018 7:14 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
At the moment, the UK is obliged to pay for its S1 pensioners, so at the moment they would be designated a third party as per your text, but that could change after Brexit. Other than that, the two final points do not apply. That means that early retirees currently paying for either the Convenio or private insurance would be covered and then cancel thir insurance or Convenio contract.

Thats my understanding of it - what the authorities make of it is another matter.

bobd22 Aug 1st 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Fred that is more or less how I read it also. However with Brexit date looming and it's uncertainty. For those hoping to obtain residency pre Brexit date surely need to comply with the rules as we now understand them, i.e. private health insurance unless covered by S1, as to get convenio especial you need to have been legally resident for a year. Unless of course some certain clarification comes out re the new Spanish changes and this is clarified by the residency application system. Somehow I don't see that happening in near future?

lurchio Aug 2nd 2018 8:28 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Hello Guys! I have been following the new Health reforms with interest. I think you are correct in your thinking. Reading through the document, it appears that you can fall back on the new Health Care rules if 'you are not covered for health care , whilst a Resident in Spain by any other means'. I read this as

1. For 'early retirees', you still have to obtain the' leglislation letter' from the UK, effectively excluding you from the UK NHS as you do not live there anymore. Then, instead of going on the Convenio after 1 year on Private Insurance, you go straight on health cover and residencia. That is, instead of obtaining residencia with Private Insurance and complying with the Convenio requirements that state you have to have been Resident for at least a year before you pay your 60 euros a month. If you are already on the 'Convenio' (like me), I personally will keep paying it until they write to me confirming the situation, or it becomes common knowledge so I can query it. The prescription charges are 100% on the Convenio, so it will be interesting to see the developments there.

2. For those of UK Retirement age that are eligible for an S1. I think as long as the reciprocal agreement stands, there will be the requirement for the UK to pay the 3000 odd euros for you every year. So, technically you are personally getting free health care, but the UK pays which puts it outside of the latest conditions. The only advantage I can see for this category of persons is that IF the UK 'pull' the reciprocal agreement, you then have no cover elsewhere, and fall under the new Regulations. Its a 'safety net' , and a big one! I can also see it being worth while for those who are of retirement age next year, make their plans and find that the UK have pulled the S1 for new applicants! (Bob?)

One thing is for sure, it will have to 'soak through' all the Autonomous Communities, this being Spain who knows how long that will take BUT its a huge step in the right direction really. Me, I will not be cancelling any payment just YET!!!

bobd22 Aug 3rd 2018 9:01 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by lurchio (Post 12542340)
One thing is for sure, it will have to 'soak through' all the Autonomous Communities, this being Spain who knows how long that will take BUT its a huge step in the right direction really. Me, I will not be cancelling any payment just YET!!!

Ian you have obviously managed to find more detailed information on these changes than I have. From what I have managed to find it seems that it is really intended for those coming from outside the EU as there are reciprocal agreements for those within the EU that one should comply with. As you say there are those that fall outside those reciprocal agreements i.e. early retirees. The problem I see is time is running out to get legal residency before official Brexit day. With a final deal it has been agreed that those resident pre Brexit date will be able to continue resident and when the time comes be able to obtain medical cover under the S1. From what I have read that is possibly also going to be the case for those obtaining residency in the transition period? However I don't think the latter is certain as yet? So as I see it time is quickly passing to 29 March next year to get residency and remove that uncertainty. As you rightly say it will take time for these changes to be applied by individual regions but time is running out to meet the Brexit date. Like you my view is yes it may well be a fall back position but better to comply with legislation we know is actually in place between UK and Spain now and obtain the important residency pre March 2019 all be it that may cost an individual than miss that date and end up in total limbo! That's just my personal view.

Johncarzx Aug 3rd 2018 10:23 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
This story is certainly doing the rounds, see below.

‘’Cabinet spokeswoman Isabel Celaá said talks were under way with all of Spain's regional governments to negotiate the return of public healthcare to everyone, whether or not they had a valid residence permit or were working, retired, registered on the dole or in receipt of maternity, paternity or sick pay.’’

https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spai...thin-six-weeks

Whilst this statement seems to be in plain English few believe or trust it. It seems a nice headline grabber for the government but if and when the bureaucrats receive the directive the complexion of it may change dramatically.This statement would mean bin the S1 from DWP, bin private health insurance, bin EHIC. It would be Spain twinned with the UK where every man and his dog from anywhere in the world just turns up for free treatment for anything, no questions asked, no documents or ID required, never charged on to anyone other than the British taxpayer who seems to be more interested in the next episode of Coronation Street and the price of lager.

Perhaps all a bit 1st of April stuff. At least Rubber Stamp will think so.

Fred James Aug 3rd 2018 10:54 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
That article is 6 weeks old.

The new rules were approved last week so it is certainly not an April Fool story.

Much information here

https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/ap...-july-27-2018/

Johncarzx Aug 3rd 2018 11:22 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12542550)
That article is 6 weeks old.

The new rules were approved last week so it is certainly not an April Fool story.

Much information here

https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/ap...-july-27-2018/

Thanks Fred

Takes a bit of understanding for a thicky like me. Most expats only want to know the bottom line.

To cut to the chase, does this mean no proof of healthcare when applying for residence, EU or non EU persons?

Does it mean anyone can just turn up at the doctors or hospital for free treatment?

bobd22 Aug 3rd 2018 11:25 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
I suppose then we must wait and see if they drop the requirement to prove health cover when making a residency application.

3robinsons Aug 3rd 2018 11:31 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Wow, it seems like there a lot of changes going on.....as non-one, especially the politicians, knows what deal the uk strikes, I think we should prepare for the worse and hope for the best :fingerscrossed:
thanks for all the info!

Johncarzx Aug 3rd 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by bobd22 (Post 12542560)
I suppose then we must wait and see if they drop the requirement to prove health cover when making a residency application.

I suppose you are correct bob. Although some of the information on free healthcare for everyone in Spain seems to be in plain English, either no one believes it or no one understands it. When asking the simple questions all you get is a link to what some other Tom, Dick or Harry is saying, it’s just like kicking the tin can down the road.If this question is so difficult what chance has anyone knowing where they stand on a BREXIT deal, if there ever is one? Bring back Dusty Bin 3-2-1 all is forgiven.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...01efd4a5c8.jpg

lurchio Aug 3rd 2018 1:00 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
I read the Spanish version, and the CAB version is a very good take on it. I have lived here five years I cannot see the new Regulations coming into effect much before the Brexit date, based on previous experience e.g. it took Andalucia almost a Year to offer the Convenio Especial after it was enshrined into Spanish law. Add to that the month of August, when NOTHING happens and it looks worse!

After Brexit, it may be made more difficult by the Spanish local Communities who change the 'guidelines ' as they please. Yes, people got residency here before the EU included the UK, and Yes, non EU people still get a retirement visa/ residency.....but currently they have to show 32000 euros income per annum! Having said that, things may be sweeter after Brexit for UK residents if that's agreed ...NOBODY KNOWS!

So Bob's message is right. To be safe, do it now if you can!

lurchio Aug 3rd 2018 1:05 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by 3robinsons (Post 12542562)
Wow, it seems like there a lot of changes going on.....as non-one, especially the politicians, knows what deal the uk strikes, I think we should prepare for the worse and hope for the best :fingerscrossed:
thanks for all the info!

Dead right. It's the time it will take to be absorbed by the Autonomous Communities that means you cannot bank on anything until your relevant A.C. gets it out there in black and white. A fact of life as regards living in Spain......Don't expect and you won't be disappointed ! It will happen, poco a poco......as they say !

Johncarzx Aug 3rd 2018 1:19 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by lurchio (Post 12542587)
I read the Spanish version, and the CAB version is a very good take on it. I have lived here five years I cannot see the new Regulations coming into effect much before the Brexit date, based on previous experience e.g. it took Andalucia almost a Year to offer the Convenio Especial after it was enshrined into Spanish law. Add to that the month of August, when NOTHING happens and it looks worse!

After Brexit, it may be made more difficult by the Spanish local Communities who change the 'guidelines ' as they please. Yes, people got residency here before the EU included the UK, and Yes, non EU people still get a retirement visa/ residency.....but currently they have to show 32000 euros income per annum! Having said that, things may be sweeter after Brexit for UK residents if that's agreed ...NOBODY KNOWS!

So Bob's message is right. To be safe, do it now if you can!

Thanks Lurchio

I guess it is the usual of ‘Politician speak with fork tongue’ believe it when you see it. Just like a TV advert, XYZ washing powder washes whiter than white, and at the bottom of the screen that you can hardly see for the 2 seconds ‘terms and conditions apply, excludes everything and everyone’.

Palmerston Aug 3rd 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Thanks for the CAB link, Fred.

This bit was interesting:

"Basically all residents have always been entitled to healthcare if not insured due to employment or S1."

That's a new one on me.

@ Johncarzx, I think the bottom line, if I've got it right (?), is that this new Decree is essentially reaffirming the content of the existing Royal Decree of 2012. The only difference, as far as we're concerned, is that this new Decree is spelling it out. The 2012 Decree confirmed the principle of automatic healthcare coverage for a Spanish resident (if not covered through employment or state retirement) going forward from the date of the Decree, not up to the date of the Decree, which is how the INSS chose to interpret it.

Hopefully, this new Decree will be watertight this time and leave no room for abuse or misinterpretation by anyone....

1sexsmith Aug 3rd 2018 2:17 pm

Guys .This is a wild rumour being circulated by I imagine third hand translations.Please read the actual legislation IN SPANISH. I will save lots of phone calls to various agencies which is now happening

I can't paste the required article at the moment but I can assure you the law does not apply to UK expat.

The reason I am doing this is my wife works for a law firm and all day Brits have been shouting at her about how they have been swindled into buying insurances and CE . And there is this new law etc. None of them speak Spanish and they all rely on either the grapevine or Google translates and now believe they are experts in law. Please stop it

Today. Aug 3. Read it please

http://amp.economiadigital.es/upday/...m_content=push

bobd22 Aug 3rd 2018 4:34 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Thank you for that update, that is exactly how I thought the new situation was. In other words it is for illegal immigrants who are neither registered or able to apply to register for residency which of course we from UK currently can do.

Fred James Aug 3rd 2018 6:50 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
No, it’s not just for the latest batch of African immigrants. Spain offered similar cover a few years back and then it was stopped. The present government have reintroduced it, not particularly for the recent flood of immigrants although the press has obviously picked up on that

Many expats are (quite understandably) getting their knickers in a twist trying to work out how it will affect them. As far as 99% of Spaniards are concerned, they all have full health cover already and have done for some time. Along with Brexit and the possible implications of a "No Deal" it is a very important consideration with regards to future residency rights, however it will be very low down the list of priorities for the departments that deal with the registration of new residents and will continue to be for some time.

A typical example of this sort of situation is the recent (OK two years ago) when the rules about tax on UK government pensions changed. To my certain knowledge, after 2 tax declaration period have passed, the staff in the Tax Office have not the slightest idea how it works and are giving out conflicting and incorrect advice on the matter. This once again, is because it is a subject of no interest to the Spanish so it just gets ignored.






1sexsmith Aug 3rd 2018 9:01 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
This law will not affect UK nationals at this time. Conjecture about Brexit is just that conjecture. So will people stop talking about free health care for all residents as it is not specifically accurate

lurchio Aug 3rd 2018 9:07 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
As I said above. My experience here tells me that I will not be stopping our Convenio Especial payments just yet. As for people going berserk on rumour and innuendo, they have much to learn on how long Spanish Leglislation takes to get to their level, and the important thing is they are covered for the worse TODAY. Long way to go on this yet I think

I cannot see a situation where it will apply ONLY to non EC person's. Excluding British citizens, a lot more other EC citizens are settled.here and will continue to do so from all over the 27 countries, and they do not all have transferable healthcare.I sense a bit if a furore if that will be the case. It's not just about the British!!!

Unfortunately, I have had to learn 'wait and See ' since living here. I will let you know if I receive anything Officially in connection with my Convenio Especial! (Do not hold your breath).

My Spanish friend who is a language teacher helped translate the legal document we accessed. Articles, etc mean nothing to me, it's the document.

1sexsmith Aug 3rd 2018 9:48 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Please read the article linked above. This is not about the time it will take for something to be implicated in local offices. Sanchez has not elected to replace all of the anterior decree. That is to say legal residents will not receive free care if they do not contribute. Retired nationals are subject to the bilateral agreement which is nothing to do with this decree

thegolfer Aug 3rd 2018 10:17 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by 1sexsmith (Post 12542646)
Guys .This is a wild rumour being circulated by I imagine third hand translations.Please read the actual legislation IN SPANISH. I will save lots of phone calls to various agencies which is now happening

I can't paste the required article at the moment but I can assure you the law does not apply to UK expat.

The reason I am doing this is my wife works for a law firm and all day Brits have been shouting at her about how they have been swindled into buying insurances and CE . And there is this new law etc. None of them speak Spanish and they all rely on either the grapevine or Google translates and now believe they are experts in law. Please stop it

Today. Aug 3. Read it please

Kaipa, this is written by a Venezuelan journalist for an digital publication. What you are repeatedly saying is NOT correct and NOT at all what the decree says. You seem desperate for it NOT to be true from your multiple postings on other forums under various guises.

In the Decree it clearly states the following ..... "The universal health will be valid in Spain from tomorrow. The measure guarantees the right to health protection and healthcare to "all persons with Spanish nationality and foreigners who have established their residence in Spanish territory." This has been determined by the Royal Decree of the Government that has been published on Monday in the Official State Gazette (BOE)".

FACT.......get over it and stop spreading misinformation

1sexsmith Aug 3rd 2018 10:24 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
What on earth does the nationality of the journalist or the platform of production have do with facts? The decree does not cover all residents as is outlined in the decree articulo 3
. I am merely pointing out that you are raising people's hopes based on conjecture not fact.

lurchio Aug 3rd 2018 10:35 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Guys, we have all been here before with new stuff.... believe me. Everything becomes clear in the fullness of time here!

As I said, I will be the test case. 61 years if age, so not eligible for an S1 ,not having NHS UK cover I can transfer, but paying for the Convenio Especial. I cannot imagine they will leave it too long if there's a change due to any back dated refunds!

So, we have all made our points wherever and under whatever guise for what ever reason. The proof of the pudding etc.

Like I said, been here before.

thegolfer Aug 3rd 2018 10:44 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by 1sexsmith (Post 12542813)
What on earth does the nationality of the journalist or the platform of production have do with facts? The decree does not cover all residents as is outlined in the decree articulo 3
. I am merely pointing out that you are raising people's hopes based on conjecture not fact.

Kaipa mate, Just pointing out that you are scouring the internet and this is all you can come up with in your seemingly (post after post after post of on other forums. Only a few here several of which have been already deleted as you have only joined here today to spread your misinformation) desperate hope that Ex pats U.K in Particular don't receive what is stated in the Decree.....are you living here? Or Scotland

lurchio Aug 3rd 2018 11:08 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
Wait a minute, multiple names on multiple forums, partner that works in Solicitors office, 'robust' / sensational replies, just joined today..... Avocado is that you?

1sexsmith Aug 3rd 2018 11:08 pm

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
With all due respect I am not the author of the article. Yes maybe I have been looking for articles written by persons not on UK forums. Is that a crime? This is a published article today by ( as far as I can determine) a digital platform focussing on Spainish affairs. I assume that the journalist is a Spanish speaker as you seem to know his nationality but I don't follow your objection to him being Venezuelan. He seems to have made a fairly good assessment of the decree. Where is the misinformation? I take it you are a native Spanish speaker? I just ask as you place the official decree in English which I am not sure is available.

thegolfer Aug 4th 2018 6:50 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by 1sexsmith (Post 12542827)
With all due respect I am not the author of the article. Yes maybe I have been looking for articles written by persons not on UK forums. Is that a crime? This is a published article today by ( as far as I can determine) a digital platform focussing on Spainish affairs. I assume that the journalist is a Spanish speaker as you seem to know his nationality but I don't follow your objection to him being Venezuelan. He seems to have made a fairly good assessment of the decree. Where is the misinformation? I take it you are a native Spanish speaker? I just ask as you place the official decree in English which I am not sure is available.

You know what you've been up to and know full well what the Decree says......reasons only known to yourself you desperately want them to not be correct and you blitzing this and other forums ( one in particular) is childish. Just accept what the governments Decree says rather than an unknown hack on a small digital platform who knows no more than anyone else. Now just get over it. Just wait and see how it pans out.

1sexsmith Aug 4th 2018 7:29 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
I am sorry but why are you being so aggressive. I would love it to be the case that there is free healthcare. Who wouldn't? I simply put up an article that popped up on my phone onto two forums as a way of throwing light on new development that effects many of us. Where is the crime? I don't see how your interpretation of the law is any better than anyone else's. As I said before my wife's firm was fielding lots of enqiries based on what they consider rumours as opposed to solid official lines. As far as all this goes nothing has changed and legal EU residents require proof of healthcare cover. If you would show me an article that deals with this aspect of the law in as much detail as the one by the Venezuelan "hack" then that would help add to the debate. I am not sure writing in bold red letters makes something more truthful though

thegolfer Aug 4th 2018 8:41 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 
An article that just popped up on your phone??? Do me a favour, you spent hours trying to find one. Just do yourself a favour and Read the Decree wherever you are Scotland as you say on one forum or Spain. Good to see your wife has two jobs...depending on which forum you post on.....I have NOT interpreted anything whatsoever in any post, I just take issue with your blatant twisting of what is written in the Decree. I'm sure many here will have read your "outpourings" as Kaipa on another forum and have reached their own conclusions....as to your motives....who knows.

bobd22 Aug 4th 2018 8:48 am

Re: Health insurance and Tax
 

Originally Posted by thegolfer (Post 12542821)
. Only a few here several of which have been already deleted as you have only joined here today to spread your misinformation) desperate hope that Ex pats U.K in Particular don't receive what is stated in the Decree.....are you living here? Or Scotland

It also seems that you have followed them onto the forum only today in order to no doubt continue an argument from another forum? What he says as far as I have read is in fact currently fact. If someone wishes to obtain residency NOW they must comply with the current rules one of which is proving you have health cover either by means of an S1 or private full cover. What happens post Brexit should there be no deal is pure speculation as we do not in fact know anything for certain re that. Let's face it all we read on the new Spanish health care change is translated from Spanish one word translated wrongly could change the whole thing drastically. As Lurchio says let's wait and see but until the regulations are formally changed for expats getting health care and the situation is known properly, we simply don't know. I can't see any point in simply arguing in print on the forum as it doesn't really help anyone.


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