Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

We have a 2nd home in Gandia area, use the house about 30% of the year. One major concern I have is Electricity bills . In April-May this year used only 3KWh but bill was a whopping 75 Euros. Tempted to buy a bank of batteries/Solar panels and get the Electricity disconnected, I can see there are limitation especially in a village re running a generator.

Has anyone done this ie got electricity disconnected? Are there any legal restraints?

Pete O

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Hi and a warm welcome to the Spanish forum on BE. Myself and Fred James are the moderators for the Spanish forums whilst BEVS moderates Europe. Moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. This is so that members gain the information that they are looking for and find their experiences on the forums to be friendly and worthwhile.

Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderator who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are usually friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge about the issues of living in Spain. I hope that you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

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Rosemary

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Two years ago the Spanish govt unveiled crazy new plans to tax the sunlight with regard to small properties.

Not surprisingly the energy watchdog later objected to it.

What the present situation is, I've no idea, but would be interested to find out.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

If you put Spain tax sunlight as a search there is quite a bit on this subject some of it quite recent. Seems beyond a joke to me taxing sunlight, I was never aware the Armada conquered the sun but you live and learn.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Interesting article from June this year. Looks like the govt still means business.

Forbes Welcome

"In early June, the Ministry of Industry, Energy and Tourism released a draft of proposed legislation designed to discourage the use of solar charged batteries by people who produce their own electricity.
Under the proposed legislation, consumers that owned small solar-plus-storage systems would be forced to pay about $10 per kilowatt (kW) of installed capacity. In the residential sector, the fee would nearly double the payback period from 16 years to about 31 years for solar plus storage systems. Consumers that owned larger solar-plus-storage systems (i.e., > 15 kW) would be charged about $41 per kW."

Beware of breaking the rules or a fine of up to 68 million can be imposed !
Which is double the fine for anyone found guilty of leaking radioactive nuclear waste !

A little ray of sunshine here perhaps.....
It also states that it's not applicable to an off grid Solar Plus system, whatever that maybe.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

This nonsense is strictly lobbying from Spain's politically powerful energy sector. They have a good deal now with the government-subsidised, highly regulated upper-eschelon pricing scheme. The last thing they need is to have millions generating their own energy and reducing or eliminating their dependence on the energy cartel.

Unsurprisingly, the proposal also includes a regulation that forces those who legally generate their own electricity to be required to put any excess energy on the grid with no compensation whatsoever. This means that if you have solar (or a generator or wind...) You will be required to pay endesa up to €80k to connect you to the grid (if you arent already connected), PLUS pay standing charges, AND give away any excess energy you don't use, which naturally, will be controlled exclusively by endesa, so they would be in a position to legally suck 50% of your solar-generated energy, and leave you with whatever is left over. And you'd still have to pay them for it.

Spanish energy needs to be separated from government. They are much too closely connected.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

So every bit as crazy as the Land Grab laws.:blink:

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

The U K is effectively ending the solar generation feed in tarrifs from nexf year, putting at risk over 20,000 jobs the huge investment in nuclear generation and mortgaging the UK future energy policy to china is just a coincidence.
There is little long term profitability for the energy generation industry in " renewable power generation ".

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Your presumption assumes the only reason people adopt solar is to receive the feed-in tariff, which, for domestic installations, potentially amounts to pennies.

The fact is, people install solar to reduce their energy bills and achieve more independence. And solar technology has become so much cheaper and more efficient in the past decade, that the economic model is really beginning to make sense. With or without a feed-in tariff.

Frankly, if it weren't for this looming threat of having to pay endesa compensation for generating my own energy (as if it's a foregone conclusion that I owe it to them to buy all my energy from them), I would have invested in a large solar array by now, and would never consume one watt from endesa. Unfortunately, I would still have to pay their standing charges, and that's also a point against making the investment. But I couldn't care less if I could sell them my excess energy. I'd be happy to simply never pay them another penny.

20,000 jobs lost in the UK by eliminating the feed-in tariff? Really? I seriously doubt it. If the UK's solar industry relies entirely on that, then it obviously isn't a viable business to begin with.

In contrast, Spain's formidable solar industry would likely be completely wiped out if such ridiculous regulations (as proposed) were enforced. I seriously doubt it will happen, but ... It is Spain. Stranger things have happened...

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

to go back to the OP question
No it is not rentable to produce your own power
but to reduce the electric bill look up if you can reduce the connected max power.
if it is more than 3.3 kw you can reduce it and save money this way.
my bill for 2 months with 0 consumption is 27 €

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

the key sentence is: "In the residential sector, the fee would nearly double the payback period from 16 years to about 31 years for solar plus storage systems. "

right now we all in Spain pay a renewable energies surcharge with our bimonthly bill
this is part to sponsor the solar systems what got cash back and or a guaranteed higher price to put solar electric into the grid.

to answer this question:
"It also states that it's not applicable to an off grid Solar Plus system, whatever that maybe."
if you are off grid ( no power comes to your house, a disconnected meter might not be the same) and you did not get any cash back for installing your solar system then nobody will tax you for your own power.

"For the past five years, the Spanish government has aggressively rolled back subsidies for renewable energy technologies. The impact has been especially adverse for the solar power industry.

In 2011, the Emirate of Abu Dhabi threatened to sue Spain for reducing financial support for solar thermal energy projects. Meanwhile, Spain’s Supreme Court recently rejected a lawsuit brought by more than a dozen major solar developers against the Spanish government for cutting solar subsidies."

Some people thought they make good money with the Spanish Solar craze many years ago...

I remember an article several years ago who got pulled very fast from the internet.
The Spanish energy minister (something like that) complained that all the renewable energy projects they tried over a long time did not brake even and were not rentable at all.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

My understanding is that the rationale for the "tax the sun" proposal is to collect additional revenues to pay the debts the state owes the energy companies for subsidies, which are supposed to ensure affordable energy for Spanish residents.

Ironically, Spain pays amongst the highest energy costs in the world, and Spanish energy companies are amongst the most profitable. So much for subsidies and "affordable energy".

It occurs to me that instead of paying the energy companies to collect some of the world's highest energy prices (unsurprisingly, high prices regulated under Spanish law), perhaps it would better serve the "affordable energy" goal to simply redirect those subsidies to the renewable energy sector - encouraging consumers to "get off the grid", and giving the energy cartel direct competition.

But obviously, the energy cartel would never allow the government to impose such "unfair competition". After all, they are entitled to suck as much as possible from the Spanish public. It's always been that way...

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

The cost would be around 6.000 Euro - 9.000 Euro for a decent PV System and you would need around 20 m² - 60 m² roof space. If you are only spending 30% of your time there it's pointless. Include the restrictions you have and wouldn't really save you anything.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

As well as the initial set up charges you would also have to add the worry/possibly of theft, these battery/generator systems can be a magnet to thieves as the resale value is quite good

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

If the wires enter your property, I believe you are still liable for standing charges, even if you never consume even one watt of it, or even have a meter. Even if this is not obligatory under the law, if history is any guide, they will likely incessantly send you (monthly incremental) facturas from some collection agency. Death, taxes, AND electricity...

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

I pay 9 euros but that's for 7.5 amps

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

You apparently don't have an oven or a wash machine. Or you've wired around your ICP, which is what most do...

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Got a washer 40 degree washes max though, but I am totally legal.I've a feeling it's safer insurance wise.Gas for water and cooker.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

I question how it's somehow justifiable that people should be forced to live like third-world in the interest of assuring minimal competition and maximising profitability of the energy cartel...

OK, if you choose that path, that's your decision. But to be mandated, well, that's another horse...

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

That all changes when the new meters are installed - no way round the ICP then.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

It would be fairly easy for me Fred they put new meters in the entrance hall a few weeks ago,and my ICP is in the apartment.It would mean "working live" though,and why anybody would risk their insurance being voided is beyond me.And God forbid anybody did it and it started an electrical fire which ended up in a fatality.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

We have one of those new digital meters that acts as the ICP They put it in when the old meter went bad. €240 in charges. Silly me, I thought the standing charges covered things like maintenance (like in the first world). But no, apparently, it's just free money for them.

Oddly enough, I still pay 10c per day "rental" of the (now wholly useless) ICP I purchased outright for almost €300 about 5 years ago.

One of the benefits of the whole ridiculous ICP fiasco, I reckon. They made a bundle installing them, and still make a bundle even after they're obsolete. Apparently, endesa is also in the currency exchange business (exchanging it from mine to theirs).

Damned good lobbyists, that bunch. Again, one would believe this ridiculous solar taxing scheme which puts wads of more free money into endesa's pocket would have about the same chance as an ice cube in hell. But maybe not... Damn good lobbyists, this bunch.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Presumably if the meters are "smart" they would already be measuring the current drawn so what you did after the meter would make no difference

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

One would expect.....

... That if the objective is to create tariffs based on actual consumption...

... that actual consumption would be the metric by which the tariff would be determined...

But the ICP genius controls consumption not on the basis of consumption, but on the basis of the maximum drawn at any one second.., not what you consume...

... for example, you might normally use less than than 200 watts of power on the lowest tariff... But if you run the wash machine at the same time as the oven.. Whoosh! Shutdown. ...

That has nothing to do with average consumption. It has to do with what you use at any given moment, not what you actually consume, which places the burden in the consumer to avoid exceeding your contract at any given moment, not as a lifestyle...

So, if you simply want to use the oven at the same time you use the wash machine, you have to sign up for the higher tariff, or else you will be cut off. But you may never consume anywhere near the same amount as someone who irresponsibly leaves their lights on all the time...

If the goal were to set tariffs based on consumption, then it would be a simple computer algorithm to determine consumption based in meter readings. No need to charge consumers a fortune for a stupid, useless ICP that doesn't measure consumption at all.

Add to that the standing charges, charges for maintenance, charges for whatever... Not exactly "consumer friendly"... In fact, I am now convinced it's the last remaining government-complicit ripoff in Spain.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

I suppose it would depend on how smart they are, how they are calibrated,and how well they are monitored.If it's to the usual Valencian standards;).My apartment was built in the 60's so the wiring is although in good condition only really safe to handle 10 amps max,so I'm more than happy to leave the situation as is.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

Indeed Dave, I'm very familiar with the Valencian standards, it would appear one of the common requirements for electricians was to be colour blind :(

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

The new 'smart' meters already incorporate an ICP facility so you shouldn't have another in your flat.

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

When they recently installed my new "SMART" meter I would not have known it was done had I not just been going out and seen the electrical contractors van just leaving. So this means if the meter has an ICP we have two since one was installed in the Casa when the house was built.
Even though I have a 10.3 KW three phase supply when we had a house full (8) last week last week the visitors still managed to trip the ICP at the first breakfast! Interesting it is always the internal ICP that trips!

Re: Going off grid (Iberdrolla) in Spain
 

The ICP was installed a couple of years ago when everybody else was having to do it.The new meters materialised a few weeks ago,the first clue was when I arrived home and my neighbor asked me on the stairs if my power was off.When we checked the cupboard in the entrance like magic they were there.No notice give......you know just in case you might have been doing something important that needed uninterrupted power.;)Anyway now it looks like I have double cover!