Gibraltar 2

Old Dec 8th 2023, 5:19 pm
  #2191  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

https://www.chronicle.gi/gibraltar-s...ency-measures/

Gibraltar ‘saluted’ as example to follow as UK puts focus on anti-corruption transparency measures


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Old Dec 8th 2023, 7:41 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
It was Madrid which insisted first that Gibraltar not form part of the UK treaty and second that no future relationship deal could be reached without Spain’s consent.
Gibraltar is not part of the UK so I can understand why it shouldn't be part of a general treaty with the UK and could easily be dealt with separately. Plus it's understandable that Madrid would want any deal concerning Gibraltar to have its approval so that nothing could be done behind its back.

Originally Posted by DLC
I really doubt that if Spain were removed from the equation, any other EU or Schengen country would allow the airport border control to be done by Gibraltar or UK border guards either.
It's absolutely logical that Spain is going to be in control of the external Schengen (and in effect its own) border. That's how it works at every other border in Spain, and that's exactly how it works in every other country across the entire EU (national entity manning its own/Schengen border control).

If the UK and/or Gibraltar are arguing for ANYTHING different then that's about as ridiculous as someone else saying that UK border force should not be in control of arrivals into the UK...
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Old Dec 8th 2023, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by astera
[...]If the UK and/or Gibraltar are arguing for ANYTHING different then that's about as ridiculous as someone else saying that UK border force should not be in control of arrivals into the UK...
Now that you mention it, an awful lot of people of a certain persuasion do seem to think the French authorities should be controlling the UK border for them
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Old Dec 9th 2023, 7:45 am
  #2194  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by astera

If the UK and/or Gibraltar are arguing for ANYTHING different then that's about as ridiculous as someone else saying that UK border force should not be in control of arrivals into the UK...
So you are agreeing that after the Treaty is signed making Gibraltar part of Schengen then Gibraltar should be in charge of it's own external borders.
I.E The port and airport.👍
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Old Dec 9th 2023, 9:36 am
  #2195  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
So you are agreeing that after the Treaty is signed making Gibraltar part of Schengen then Gibraltar should be in charge of it's own external borders.
I.E The port and airport.👍
Gibraltar is not part of Schengen, is not a Schengen country, and is not an EU country. It's not part of any EU or Schengen treaty. It would be a guest with Spain having responsibility for any decisions taken at the border.

I don't know why you'd think Gibraltar could be in charge of a Schengen border given how Westminister decided what Brexit should look like. If the UK and Gibraltar had stayed in the single market then there might have been a possibility of Gibraltar managing a Schengen border, but they didn't and this is the result.

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Old Dec 9th 2023, 6:19 pm
  #2196  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by DLC
Gibraltar is not part of Schengen, is not a Schengen country, and is not an EU country. It's not part of any EU or Schengen treaty. It would be a guest with Spain having responsibility for any decisions taken at the border.

I don't know why you'd think Gibraltar could be in charge of a Schengen border given how Westminister decided what Brexit should look like. If the UK and Gibraltar had stayed in the single market then there might have been a possibility of Gibraltar managing a Schengen border, but they didn't and this is the result.
Is this true or another of the DLC fabrications?
Do you have anything to back it up?

However should Gibraltar agree how long do you think it will take before Spain breaks the agreement.
Also do you really think Spain will stop causing chaos at the frontier?
After all they are Spanish
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Old Dec 11th 2023, 10:43 am
  #2197  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
Is this true or another of the DLC fabrications?
Do you have anything to back it up?
The original press release from the Gibraltan government:

Spain, as the neighbouring Schengen member state, will be responsible as regards the European Union for the implementation of Schengen.
Seems the 30-odd people stopped with magenta cards (British residents) in your original post used fake hotel bookings and were turned back because of that. Original source - Archive link

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
However should Gibraltar agree how long do you think it will take before Spain breaks the agreement.

Also do you really think Spain will stop causing chaos at the frontier?

After all they are Spanish
So yeah, he who is without sin and all that...
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Old Dec 11th 2023, 4:57 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Albares says ‘absurd’ to exclude airport from UK/EU treaty on Gibraltar



BY BRIAN REYESShare
11th December 2023Spain’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, Jose Manuel Albares, said it would be “absurd” to exclude the airport from any UK/EU treaty on Gibraltar’s post-Brexit relations with the bloc, adding it must “of course” be included in any agreement.

Mr Albares made the comments during an interview with El Pais published on Sunday, three days before the next formal round of negotiation between the UK and the EU.

Spain has long sought “joint use” of the airport, something the UK and Gibraltar reject because it could raise sovereignty implications.

They favour “enhanced use” instead and note that the airport was not included in the New Year’s Eve framework agreement that forms the basis for the treaty talks.
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Old Dec 11th 2023, 7:18 pm
  #2199  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
So you are agreeing that after the Treaty is signed making Gibraltar part of Schengen then Gibraltar should be in charge of it's own external borders.
I.E The port and airport.👍
No. I'm saying that Spain should be in charge of the external Schengen border. There is no logical way that after brexit Gibraltar will be able to control who enters the Schengen zone.

You want free and seamless travel from Gibraltar to Spain and back, then Spain must control who enters in the first place. Absolutely logical. Plus with Gibraltar not part of the common market, customs checks will remain in place for anyone entering Spain.
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Old Dec 11th 2023, 8:09 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by astera
[...]Plus with Gibraltar not part of the common market, customs checks will remain in place for anyone entering Spain.
Unless Gibraltar joins the Customs Union (or has some equivalent agreement)
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Old Dec 11th 2023, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
Spain has long sought “joint use” of the airport, something the UK and Gibraltar reject because it could raise sovereignty implications.

They favour “enhanced use” instead and note that the airport was not included in the New Year’s Eve framework agreement that forms the basis for the treaty talks.
Seems like the UK, Gibraltar, and the Gibraltar Chronicle are trying to rewrite history. You only need to look at the paragraphs around the original paragraph I quoted:

As we have been seeking to do, the treaty to be negotiated will deal with maximised and unrestricted mobility of persons between Gibraltar and the Schengen area.

Spain, as the neighbouring Schengen member state, will be responsible as regards the European Union for the implementation of Schengen.

This will be managed by the introduction of a FRONTEX operation for the control of entry and exit points from the Schengen area at the Gibraltar entry points.

These arrangements will initially be provided for an initial period of four years.

It will also seek to address maximised and unrestricted mobility of goods between Gibraltar and the European Union.
This is from the press release about the NYE 2020 interim agreement from the Gibraltar government website.

How would you maximise movement of people and goods between the Schengen area and Gibraltar if you didn't include the airport? Are people now seriously trying to argue that the port and the airport are not Gibraltar entry points and were not mentioned in the interim agreement given what the surrounding paragraphs say?

Last edited by DLC; Dec 11th 2023 at 9:19 pm.
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Old Dec 13th 2023, 5:04 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Gibraltar wrote over £7 billion insurance in UK last year

Published by GBC News

Brexit created an opportunity for Gibraltar to focus on the UK insurance market.

According to PWC's Head of General Insurance, Gibraltar wrote over £7 billion of insurance premium and has now become a specialist in the UK market.

PWC held an industry briefing today focusing on the insurance market and the latest regulatory updates.
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Old Dec 18th 2023, 4:58 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Treaty:
Last week's negotiations in London did not end in an agreement. According to Spanish press "no progress has been made on the thorniest pending issues, such as the joint use of Gibraltar airport and the presence of uniformed Spanish agents at both the port and the airport. Negotiations are likely to continue this week, with the aim of trying to reach an agreement before Christmas.
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Old Dec 18th 2023, 8:08 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
Unless Gibraltar joins the Customs Union (or has some equivalent agreement)
Never going to happen. Gibraltar (like Ceuta and Melilla) has never been in the customs union and isn't about to join now.
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Old Dec 18th 2023, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
Treaty:
Last week's negotiations in London did not end in an agreement. According to Spanish press "no progress has been made on the thorniest pending issues, such as the joint use of Gibraltar airport and the presence of uniformed Spanish agents at both the port and the airport. Negotiations are likely to continue this week, with the aim of trying to reach an agreement before Christmas.
Fred, as you know, I'm extremely pro Gibraltar and enjoy visiting there but I think you are going to have to compromise on this one. I honestly don't think it matters if Spanish border force controls immigration in Gibraltar airport. Why don't you open the airport on the Spanish side so that people visiting Spain can use that exit and then you can have additional checks (after Schengen clearance) at the Gibraltar exit. There is not enough airport traffic for it to become congested. You cannot realistically expect Gibraltar to be allowed to manage the incoming EES/ETIAS systems when they go live.

The only other option is just leave the border it as it is now. It works well enough with very few delays.
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