Gibraltar 2

Old Oct 25th 2023, 9:22 am
  #2041  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
The 96% that you keep harping on about voted against brexit, they did not vote to be part of Spain, and never will.
But they did wish to be part of the EU.

Aren't their wishes also paramount?
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Old Oct 25th 2023, 4:02 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
But they did wish to be part of the EU.

Aren't their wishes also paramount?
Yes our wishes are paramount. But we chose to be British not Spanish.
Unfortunately we cannot have it both ways, although if we manage to join Schengen then the problem should be solved so long as Spain accepts that fact.
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Old Oct 25th 2023, 5:46 pm
  #2043  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Would that also imply joining the Customs Union at some point?
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 11:23 am
  #2044  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
Would that also imply joining the Customs Union at some point?
No it doesnt. Iceland is in Schengen but not in EUCU. Also, Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania are in EUCU but not in Schengen.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 2:01 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

True - but none of those is a Schengen state with a land border with another, which Schengen rules require to be open and with no border infrastruture in place.

Presumably that has some implications for goods moving through that border.

I know that pre-Brexit, Gib enjoyed a special relationship with the EU and a concession on EU Customs Union membership but will that remain the case if the border with Spain is to cease being a hard border?
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 2:30 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
I know that pre-Brexit, Gib enjoyed a special relationship with the EU and a concession on EU Customs Union membership
Please explain
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 2:44 pm
  #2047  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
Please explain
Well, normally it's a condition of EU membership that states adhere to the Customs Union, which forms an integral part of the overall package.

In Gib's case, it wasn't required to.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
Well, normally it's a condition of EU membership that states adhere to the Customs Union, which forms an integral part of the overall package.

In Gib's case, it wasn't required to.
There has always in my lifetime been a customs frontier between Gib and Spain.
Pre brexit it was no easier for people to cross the frontier than it is today,
So EU membership gave Gib no benefits,
However today it is residents of Spain who cross for employment who possibly suffer most.
I and other Gibraltarians/Gib resdents have no need to cross regularly.

Last edited by Fredbargate; Oct 26th 2023 at 4:03 pm.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 5:18 pm
  #2049  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

As you well know, Fred, the UK, when an EU member state, opted out of Schengen, as did Gibraltar.

That necessitated hard borders in both cases.

The existence of border controls doesn't mean that EU membership gave Gibraltar no benefits. Nobody could possibly claim that EU membership gave the UK no benefits (well they could, but it would be an absurd and self-evidently incorrect claim, easily refuted by reference to pronouncements by the most ardent of Brexiters) just because it operated a hard border with the EU. There were immense advantages to trade as a member of the Single Market, as opposed to the current trade by agreement arrangements and all the barriers that have been erected as a result.

However, Gibraltar is shortly to do away with that hard border, which it obviously sees as an impediment to maintaining its former well-being as an EU member / affiliate.

And membership of the Customs Union would seem another logical step partly as a result - even though that could be achieved independently of Schengen membership, I think being in Schengen in this case actually promotes CU membership.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 7:06 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
As you well know, Fred, the UK, when an EU member state, opted out of Schengen, as did Gibraltar.

That necessitated hard borders in both cases.

The existence of border controls doesn't mean that EU membership gave Gibraltar no benefits. Nobody could possibly claim that EU membership gave the UK no benefits (well they could, but it would be an absurd and self-evidently incorrect claim, easily refuted by reference to pronouncements by the most ardent of Brexiters) just because it operated a hard border with the EU. There were immense advantages to trade as a member of the Single Market, as opposed to the current trade by agreement arrangements and all the barriers that have been erected as a result.

However, Gibraltar is shortly to do away with that hard border, which it obviously sees as an impediment to maintaining its former well-being as an EU member / affiliate.

And membership of the Customs Union would seem another logical step partly as a result - even though that could be achieved independently of Schengen membership, I think being in Schengen in this case actually promotes CU membership.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 7:10 pm
  #2051  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Oh, well.

At least you recognise an open border as being a benefit. I suppose we'll see about the rest, in time.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 7:54 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Gibraltar is not joining the customs union in the same way that the Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla are not joining the customs union although they are in the single market.

It's time this was sorted out and Gibraltar should grab the Schengen offer with both hands and let the Spanish control the border at the airport - I understand this is a sticking point. The Spanish should acknowledge that Gibraltar offers numerous benefits not least to their local hospitality sector and jobs for the people of La Linea. Gibraltar is the second biggest employer in the region after the Junta de Andalucia.

We like both Gibraltar and La Linea and are frequent visitors but on the occasions that we decide to stay overnight, we always stay in a hotel in La Linea and eat there too. Hotels in Gibraltar are very expensive. The hotels and restaurants in La Linea are packed, so much so, the last time we visited there were four people on the hotel reception desk and there was still a queue. We had to wait until midnight to get a table at a local restaurant. The next day (a Saturday) the breakfast room was heaving (mostly with Spanish people) and the border was clogged up with traffic in both directions - Gibraltarians going into Spain (no doubt spending money) and Spanish people and tourists going into Gibraltar also spending money. We decided to take the bus which was packed and standing room only.

Spain have a major attraction on their doorstep that costs them nothing and provides work for people in La Linea. Gibraltar have a good offer they should accept.

Is it ideal? No. Would anyone create a situation such as this today? No. But it is what it is and both sides benefit. There are enough wars and dreadful things going on in the world today and nobody wants any strife in Iberia which is fortunate enough to be one of the best places in the world to live.

Please people, sort this out and let people in the area live in peace.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 9:14 pm
  #2053  
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

I think the Canary Islands are part of the Customs Union, but outside of the EU VAT area.

But again, none of those territories has a land border with another Schengen state.
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Old Oct 26th 2023, 9:50 pm
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Red Eric
I think the Canary Islands are part of the Customs Union, but outside of the EU VAT area.

But again, none of those territories has a land border with another Schengen state.

That is something that people will have to live with and it should not be a deal breaker. Gibraltar was never part of the customs union and neither are the Canary Islands.
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Old Oct 27th 2023, 7:21 am
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Default Re: Gibraltar 2

Originally Posted by Lou71
The next day (a Saturday) the breakfast room was heaving (mostly with Spanish people) and the border was clogged up with traffic in both directions - Gibraltarians going into Spain (no doubt spending money) and Spanish people and tourists going into Gibraltar also spending money.

Please people, sort this out and let people in the area live in peace.
So far this year I have been to Spain twice.
1) 11/4/23
2) 8/10/23. On this occasion I drove to Portugal and had to return through Spain so maybe I have been three times.
Spend minimal

Last edited by Fredbargate; Oct 27th 2023 at 7:25 am.
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