bil

Try reading Tom Paine's 'Rights of man'.

He said that if you want to enjoy freedom, justice and so on, you have to extend that right to even your worst enemy, least you create a precedent that will one day turn on you.

Dick Dasterdly

Do unto others and all that stuff Bil, eh ?
Nice in principle, but no guarantee they won't turn on you anyway, just for the hell of it.
Hence we see terrorists happy to blow up anyone they can, regardless of their previous conduct, good or bad.

bil

Sort of. Governments usually like to crap on little people as they feel themselves beyond revenge, like most bullies.

I remember being bullied at one school I was at. That continued only until he had wound me up just a bit too much. I smashed his nose all over his face, and his mates carried him away blubbering snot and blood all over the place.

That was the precise instant that the bullying stopped. The word went round tooty sweety that I was more than happy to hurt someone who pissed me off.

I can still remember the satisfying crunch/splat noise it made.

Lovely.

Where was I?

Oh yeah. One day the little people get fed up and decide that since they are not allowed their political rights, they'll use violence instead.

Do you think that had we allowed the catholics in NI the same political rights as the protestants, we would have had all the problems we ended up with?

I don't.

HBG

I was glued to my TV screen on 9/11 and watched my plans for a long-saved-for world tour go up in smoke. Apart from seeing the carry-on film I didn’t know much about the Khyber Pass and I don’t think the film was too accurate.

I’ve read some since, it can hardly be avoided, it’s been on the news every day for the past nine years. But the recent posts state that you should fairly negotiate with your enemy at the end of a conflict and I agree, some common sense at Versailles would have avoided WW2.

But this ragged lot in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world don’t want to negotiate, their bible tells them to kill infidels (most of us I would think) and there’s no room for negotiation.

In a perverse way I’m pleased they didn’t just single out the UK in the European context, France and Germany are powerful allies when we’ve got our backs to the wall to face the oncoming hordes. And we have the biggest military power in the world on our side as well.

And still they come.

bil

There's a reason for that. The US couldn't cut in Vietnam against barefoot guerrilas. What retard told them they could cut it in Afghanistan?

Alexander the great couldn't, the Raj couldn't, and the Russians couldn't. Ah well, the lesson of history is.... unlearnt, I guess.

Dick Dasterdly

Like yourself I have major reservations about Afghanistan and the loss of British lives.
However if it's a choice between that and having 9/11s occuring at regular intervals all over Europe,maybe it's a sacrifice that has to be made.
Personally I would pull the troops out and bomb the place to buggery.
It wouldn't wipe them all out, but it would surely control a lot of their activities.
Trying to compare this affair with N.Ireland is like trying to compare chalk and cheese.

jackytoo

I think they should pull out of Afghanistan and seal the borders, just keep the buggers in and stop Pakistanis and home grown Asians getting in to fight. There is no solution, as Bil says there never has been.

bil

At the moment, Afghanistan contains people who like us, people who loathe us, and those who haven't made up their minds. An indescriminate response like you suggest would surely just shift almost everyone into the first group.

9/11 all over europe? Interesting how the strikes have all been so amaturish after that big one, isn't it?

I loathe conspiracy theories, but I would love a rational explanation about that.

bil

You can't seal a border unless you are prepared to sink a large fortune in defense costs to do so.

If British Muslims felt the UK had a fair and balanced attitude to Islam, we might just find we didn't have a problem any more. Trouble is, our ill considered uncritical support of the US has tarred us badly with their brush.

Dick Dasterdly

I think most of them hate us and the rest couldn't care a toss.
Maybe difficult for them to do another 9/11, but lots of warnings are at present in force about likely Mumbai like attacks, which would be much easier for them to carry out.

bil

I think there are a lot who don't like the Taliban, but won't speak out in case we wuss out, which we probably will do.

Even Mumbai was small potatoes.

How come nothing so massive as 9/11?

HBG

9/11 was the big one, planned for years and executed purely by Saudis who slipped under the radar of the security services everywhere, especially the CIA who regarded their (the Saudis) home country as an ally, an extremely important one for billions upon billions of reasons.

The Germans had surveillance in place on a Mosque in Hamburg, but followed the US in ignoring it for the greater good (the billions upon billions). The UK were largely onlookers and would never have upset the apple cart for billions of reasons.

The 21 Saudis completed their civilian flying training right under the noses of the CIA, having already been trained to fly military aircraft. The targets were so obvious to beggar belief and only failed on the White House leg.

The Americans underestimated the hatred coming out of Saudi Arabia, their desert kingdom ally, and remonstrated in Afghanistan and then Iraq, the latter being a ridiculous target dreamt up by religious madmen who refused to see the wood for the trees.

It ignited an Islam response that could well haunt us for evermore. It started a war without end.

(The US and the UK are still supplying the Saudis with unbelievable amounts of the most modern weapons. To protect them against what?)

HBG

After posting my post i read this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-life-NY.html

That's it, I'm off to walk the dog.

cricketman

I never got the link between Afghanistan, Iraq and 9-11

Bin Laden is Syrian, and the Bin Laden family is best of friends with Bush and Co.

The 9-11 training took place in the US and to a smaller extent in countries like Pakistan

9-11 was just an excuse the US used to try and overthrow the regimes in the Middle East and get control of the oil supply. Only two countries fell for this, the UK and Spain, both at the time controlled by slimey presidents who would do anything to get themselves photographed with the president of the USA.

Dick Dasterdly

???

I'm only aware of One regime which was overthrown or attempted to be overthrown, and control and income of that countries oil supply was handed back to them as I understand it.