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the end of the euro in Spain

the end of the euro in Spain

Old Dec 9th 2011, 10:33 am
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

I think it would be a positive move if the EU kicked out the UK as no politician will have the guts to pull us out. What good has it ever done for the UK! The long term intention of France and Germany has always been to strip London of it's Financial centre and that is why Cameron had to veto the new treaty.

The euro never worked, they have just been living on borrowed time. Even now they are fudging. Strange when the euro was set-up they never had any contingency for it failing

Just seen a comment in Spanish newspaper saying let the British stay on their Island. They only want the advantages of Europe not the inconveniences....not like Spain then who gets more out of the EU than they pay in and was asking yesterday for aid to pay off their debts....couldn't make it up, could you.

Last edited by jackytoo; Dec 9th 2011 at 11:33 am.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 11:35 am
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jojojojojo View Post
The banks wouldnt revert back to their currency if the pesata were to return. They're international and the chances are so would any mortgage repayments be. So earning in pesatas and paying a mortgage in "the euro" or whatever other currency the international world chose to use would be virtually impossible and therefore wouldnt work. Think about it. Without exception, all banks are international. they are financed by the IMF. They could hardly allow themselves to be in a position of running a currency that isnt worth anything - it would be like them lending and spending monopoly money! How would they compete!

Sorry, I know what you're saying, but that cant and wont happen - the opposite is far more likely. Then there will be trouble

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The banks have to abide by the rules of the country they are trading in.
If Spain reverted to the peseta then there's not a thing the banks can do about it.
Mortgage holders in Spain took out loans in the local currency, be that the Euro, the Pesetas or the leaf. Surely the bank would have to take the haircut, otherwise there would be riots.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 11:43 am
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
They only want the advantages of Europe not the inconveniences....not like Spain then who gets more out of the EU than they pay in and was asking yesterday for aid to pay off their debts....couldn't make it up, could you.
Spain and everybody else.

That's the root of the problem. All the members want the benefits without the contributions. That's why Germany is running the show. It made the biggest contribution and has the most to lose. France is a close second, but needs to step a bit more lightly than Germany.. in truth, France is in the same boat with Italy and Spain (to a lesser degree). They also want the benefits...
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 11:52 am
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
Just seen a comment in Spanish newspaper saying let the British stay on their Island.
I think that's a case of "be careful what you wish for!" I could imagine the Spanish tourist industry if Brits did stay on their island. Plus if UK did come out, the Spanish could decommission half of their fishing fleet, we'd have our 200 mile fishing limit back. Like you, I'm of the opinion it's cost us an absolute fortune to belong to the club, every year we've paid in far more than we ever gotten out (the complete opposite of Spain), we'd be far better out of it. Maybe when Spain started to pay it's way, to be in deficit (that time will surely come) it might have a different viewpoint. If they are happy to be governed my Merkosy, to have their tax and financial matters decided by them, let them carry on.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 12:30 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Just look at Ireland, a few years ago the Celtic Tiger, the shining example to the world. Now, broke.
and that happened inside the eurozone, so how much can you rely on the rest of the 17 (or 27) to not end up as the bob weight on the end of the pendulum in a similar manner.

Neither Germany nor France can be that squeeky clean, no matter how much Merkozy say it is everyone else's fault. This is a union and like partnerships all members are jointly and severally liable for the actions of the others.
They entered a new currency they wanted control over but didnt exercise that control, allowing people to join the partnership using known fraudulent figures and then took no action against them.

If you took in a lodger and left you wallet lying around and he took your money whose fault is it ??
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 12:33 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Playing Devil's Advocate here....if Britain did opt out of the EU......where would that leave all of us?

We wouldn't be EU citizens.....so what would our status be here?
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 12:40 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by Unmutual View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate here....if Britain did opt out of the EU......where would that leave all of us?

We wouldn't be EU citizens.....so what would our status be here?
same as now - Guiri's or Extranjero's dependent on how you feel

BUT the uk will not leave the EU, we have put too much in, have too many physical and financial connections.
We just need to sort out the Merkozy bullies.

Last edited by Domino; Dec 9th 2011 at 12:44 pm.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 12:54 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by billgates View Post
The banks have to abide by the rules of the country they are trading in.
If Spain reverted to the peseta then there's not a thing the banks can do about it.
Mortgage holders in Spain took out loans in the local currency, be that the Euro, the Pesetas or the leaf. Surely the bank would have to take the haircut, otherwise there would be riots.

If they did that they'd go under! Just one small problem of even bigger ones if Spain were to go back to the paseta

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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:00 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Spain is very positive about the EU but I wonder how it will feel if (when) they are ordered to raise the VAT rate to 23% whilst Germany has 19%

As Domino says they have been fudging the figures and moving the goalposts for years and now it has caught up.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:02 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by Biffta View Post
Yes there would of course be downsides for Spain but surely a devalued peseta would immediately make Spanish property and new home building very attractive as regards other currency countries and also tourism and this be a shot in the arm for these 2 sections of the economy. Also, exports from Spain would be more attractive to the rest of the world.
Disadvantages of course, but surely some positives?
Those are small ineffectual advantages. the big problem would be that spain would still have to pay back its debts and at a huge cost cos the debts would be in euros, not pasetas. then theres its bonds which would devalue to such a degree that they'd be worthless and no one would invest. It would become a very broken country financially, no imports would cripple it (think about fuel for example) and no investment would destroy it. So the tourists would certainly have a "different" experience when they have their amazingly cheap holidays - not sure how they'd get around tho!

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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:06 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
Spain is very positive about the EU but I wonder how it will feel if (when) they are ordered to raise the VAT rate to 23% whilst Germany has 19%

As Domino says they have been fudging the figures and moving the goalposts for years and now it has caught up.
I think that would just create a bigger black market , the only surefire way to collect revenue is fuel tax , everyone hates it , probably because its almost impossible to fiddle.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:08 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
Spain is very positive about the EU but I wonder how it will feel if (when) they are ordered to raise the VAT rate to 23% whilst Germany has 19%

As Domino says they have been fudging the figures and moving the goalposts for years and now it has caught up.
Spain sadly is known in the money markets (and in everyday life) for paying lip service but not actually carrying things out. Apparently they are known as the nation who sees tax evasion as a national sport, they try to tighten it up, but the public/corporations always find a way around it. Lets face it, how many expats bought houses in Spain by lying, yes, lying to the government about how much they paid for them - those bags of money that expats (and locals) gave as payment werent registered (black money), the abogado turning his head when those deals were done - it was and still is accepted practice. thats just one small evasion of many bigger and more outrageous acts that need to be sorted!

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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:28 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
Spain is very positive about the EU but I wonder how it will feel if (when) they are ordered to raise the VAT rate to 23% whilst Germany has 19%

As Domino says they have been fudging the figures and moving the goalposts for years and now it has caught up.
This is the problem with a single currency that is subject to each member's autonomous economics. The result is that a Euro in a bank in Greece is worth a lot less than a Euro in a bank in Germany. It doesn't take an economist to figure out that this simply can't work. This is why Merkel thinks the solution is strict controls on each member state - but it's also politics - this is also a power-play for Germany and France, which is why the other members are scoffing...

OK, if Spain went back to the Peseta, the first order of business would be to devalue it by about half, putting a lot more cash into the market, cutting the ridiculously high public wages & benefits, greatly cut public & private debt, and making Spanish goods, property, and tourism much more competitive on the global stage. Same with Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland....

As long as they are in the Euro, they simply can't do that, and so the burden falls on those Eurozone members who have the lowest deficits (Germany, France, NL). Which explains why they are resisting the obvious solution.

By the way, neither Germany or France or NL are within 3%.. they all are in violation of the treaty. But let's not bring that up at this crucial point... :-)

So, they can either:

a) Dissolve the Euro or b) keep it just between Germany, France, NL and kick out everybody else, or c) simply print more of it (de-value it). None are painless (for those in control). Some are just less painful than others.

These are really the only options. One of those will be the result at the end of the day. Which do you think it will be?
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 1:47 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by Rotor View Post
I think that would just create a bigger black market , the only surefire way to collect revenue is fuel tax , everyone hates it , probably because its almost impossible to fiddle.
Not really there seems to be a big fiddle going on at the moment, there are many people who are buying for agriculatural use, and flogging it on to motorists.

I saw on the news the other night that they are checking for "red Diesel" on street patrols, a sign of the times and prices hurting I guess.
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Old Dec 9th 2011, 2:29 pm
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Default Re: the end of the euro in Spain

Originally Posted by jackytoo View Post
Spain is very positive about the EU but I wonder how it will feel if (when) they are ordered to raise the VAT rate to 23% whilst Germany has 19%
If the Spanish paid their taxes they wouldnt have to

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