Employer abuse in Spain
#31
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
Germany has no minimum wage, and yet the pay scale is much higher than Spain, and Germany is considered to be substantially more competitive than Spain:
Spain and German unit labour costs
And the German unemployment rate is a mere fraction of Spain:
German jobless rate
The U.S. minimum wage varies by state, US minimum wages but according to cmanconspiracytheory.com, the US secretly has always been the single most impoverished nation on earth, with massive unemployment, and most of the population lives in trailer parks, far worse off than anything you've ever seen in Europe:
US economy
Spain now at US great depression unemployment rate
world poverty comparison
World poverty index wiki
Spain and German unit labour costs
And the German unemployment rate is a mere fraction of Spain:
German jobless rate
The U.S. minimum wage varies by state, US minimum wages but according to cmanconspiracytheory.com, the US secretly has always been the single most impoverished nation on earth, with massive unemployment, and most of the population lives in trailer parks, far worse off than anything you've ever seen in Europe:
US economy
Spain now at US great depression unemployment rate
world poverty comparison
World poverty index wiki
The UK moved many people off JSA to IS then to ESA, this kept the official JobSeeker figures down, but since the fuss about perfectly fit people hiding behind ESA and being caught claiming benefits when fit to work, we are seeing the JSA figures rising.
The sending of youngsters on to training courses that lead to nothing also delays the pain for a while
#32
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Location: Alicante province
Posts: 5,753
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
Christ, those links posted by the lady in Majorca make for depressing reading. I was going to reply to them, but I'm not going to link to them again, they might stop people from sleeping.
Somewhere today I read of Chinese people working for absolutely silly wages, compared to the West; I think the article was about Apple tablets, made in China.
What made me wonder was how happy those Chinese workers looked, a long line of them working for what we in the West consider diabolical wages.
Perhaps the Chinese are unsackable, I've got no idea if that's true.
Somewhere today I read of Chinese people working for absolutely silly wages, compared to the West; I think the article was about Apple tablets, made in China.
What made me wonder was how happy those Chinese workers looked, a long line of them working for what we in the West consider diabolical wages.
Perhaps the Chinese are unsackable, I've got no idea if that's true.
#34
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
surely it is all relative.......
in the uk we are expected to pay 80p for a very small (but "perfectly shaped") pepper
in spain we are paying around €1 (80p) for a kilo - may be misshapes, may be quite large and only get 2 to the kilo
but the greengrocer seems happy to sell to me and all my neighbours at that price.
so, if these chinese have peppers how much are they paying?
they probably smile because the cameras are there, but, they are providing income to the household, their way of life is much different,
in the same way as spain is less materialistic than the uk, china is less materialistic to spain.
but - china has problems with its undeveloped eastern provinces compared with the highly materialistic western provinces led by hong kong where subsistance wages are Not paid
in the uk we are expected to pay 80p for a very small (but "perfectly shaped") pepper
in spain we are paying around €1 (80p) for a kilo - may be misshapes, may be quite large and only get 2 to the kilo
but the greengrocer seems happy to sell to me and all my neighbours at that price.
so, if these chinese have peppers how much are they paying?
they probably smile because the cameras are there, but, they are providing income to the household, their way of life is much different,
in the same way as spain is less materialistic than the uk, china is less materialistic to spain.
but - china has problems with its undeveloped eastern provinces compared with the highly materialistic western provinces led by hong kong where subsistance wages are Not paid
#35
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
surely it is all relative.......
in the uk we are expected to pay 80p for a very small (but "perfectly shaped") pepper
in spain we are paying around €1 (80p) for a kilo - may be misshapes, may be quite large and only get 2 to the kilo
but the greengrocer seems happy to sell to me and all my neighbours at that price.
so, if these chinese have peppers how much are they paying?
they probably smile because the cameras are there, but, they are providing income to the household, their way of life is much different,
in the same way as spain is less materialistic than the uk, china is less materialistic to spain.
but - china has problems with its undeveloped eastern provinces compared with the highly materialistic western provinces led by hong kong where subsistance wages are Not paid
in the uk we are expected to pay 80p for a very small (but "perfectly shaped") pepper
in spain we are paying around €1 (80p) for a kilo - may be misshapes, may be quite large and only get 2 to the kilo
but the greengrocer seems happy to sell to me and all my neighbours at that price.
so, if these chinese have peppers how much are they paying?
they probably smile because the cameras are there, but, they are providing income to the household, their way of life is much different,
in the same way as spain is less materialistic than the uk, china is less materialistic to spain.
but - china has problems with its undeveloped eastern provinces compared with the highly materialistic western provinces led by hong kong where subsistance wages are Not paid
Lets be honest, pay in Spain is pee poor top or bottom but great compared to China where workers are committing suicide and factories are meshing off windows and fitting jump nets in stair wells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
#36
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
I know of so many people have been working in the black economy in Spain and so many employers that pay cash in hand undeclared.
A friend of mine was treated really badly by her employer.
Desperate to earn, tried to ignore the shouting language, long hours and disrespect.
He refused to give her a contract after a few weeks and because she wanted to work legally he sacked her.
She has now denounced him,
I can not say any more than this for obvious reasons
The days of working off the books are over as everyone needs to show their tax deductions . Incase things happen and one needs to claim benefits.
How times change
A friend of mine was treated really badly by her employer.
Desperate to earn, tried to ignore the shouting language, long hours and disrespect.
He refused to give her a contract after a few weeks and because she wanted to work legally he sacked her.
She has now denounced him,
I can not say any more than this for obvious reasons
The days of working off the books are over as everyone needs to show their tax deductions . Incase things happen and one needs to claim benefits.
How times change
#37
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
I know of so many people have been working in the black economy in Spain and so many employers that pay cash in hand undeclared.
A friend of mine was treated really badly by her employer.
Desperate to earn, tried to ignore the shouting language, long hours and disrespect.
He refused to give her a contract after a few weeks and because she wanted to work legally he sacked her.
She has now denounced him,
I can not say any more than this for obvious reasons
The days of working off the books are over as everyone needs to show their tax deductions . Incase things happen and one needs to claim benefits.
How times change
A friend of mine was treated really badly by her employer.
Desperate to earn, tried to ignore the shouting language, long hours and disrespect.
He refused to give her a contract after a few weeks and because she wanted to work legally he sacked her.
She has now denounced him,
I can not say any more than this for obvious reasons
The days of working off the books are over as everyone needs to show their tax deductions . Incase things happen and one needs to claim benefits.
How times change
but in the UK at that time anyway no one seemed to be interested.
where are fluffy bunnies when you want one
#38
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,368
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
€1,400 plus a monthly charge of €50 on top. This woman has 3 kids, very little money, I bet the kids end up with poor teeth.
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/c...tista/1393413/
#39
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
I think I´d rather pay a bit more for a pepper than pay what this woman has been quoted to get her daughter´s teeth fixed, especially on Spanish wages.
€1,400 plus a monthly charge of €50 on top. This woman has 3 kids, very little money, I bet the kids end up with poor teeth.
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/c...tista/1393413/
€1,400 plus a monthly charge of €50 on top. This woman has 3 kids, very little money, I bet the kids end up with poor teeth.
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/c...tista/1393413/
Something the expats on here wouldnt be happy with
You can't have everything and pay nothing. But I agree, the poorest in society should be able to get their teeth fixed at a subsidised rate
#40
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
Sounds like social security payments need to be increased to help pay for free dentistry then
Something the expats on here wouldnt be happy with
You can't have everything and pay nothing. But I agree, the poorest in society should be able to get their teeth fixed at a subsidised rate
Something the expats on here wouldnt be happy with
You can't have everything and pay nothing. But I agree, the poorest in society should be able to get their teeth fixed at a subsidised rate
#42
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
Sounds like social security payments need to be increased to help pay for free dentistry then
Something the expats on here wouldnt be happy with
You can't have everything and pay nothing. But I agree, the poorest in society should be able to get their teeth fixed at a subsidised rate
Something the expats on here wouldnt be happy with
You can't have everything and pay nothing. But I agree, the poorest in society should be able to get their teeth fixed at a subsidised rate
Thanks, Cman. Couldn't get a better deal at Carrefour or on Ebay!
#43
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 121
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
As usual with these threads, things get a bit off topic, although it's all been interesting reading and good to see other's views. As the OP I felt it necessary to update any of you interested. I have now had a couple of meetings with my boss who has become increasingly hostile and arrogant, mainly due to knowing he is in a very vulnerable position due to his illegality. However, he totally believes that he can give me a freelance contract so I can go to the SS to become self employed, at my own cost as well.
He told me that the existing contract (not worth the paper it's written on) wouldn't be seen a legal, what a surprise! He says that if he gives me the freelance contract (obviously he'd take out the bits about the hours worked and location worked in along with holiday allowance etc) he would have to pay me from the company Spanish bank (they are an SL) rather than from their UK Guernsey offshore account. Then, he says, I'd have to pay tax and SS contributions, because, as he insists I am self employed. He insists that I can be freelance and have to work hours dictated by him and made to work in his office (actually the cellar of his house).
When I refused, he said he could give me a freelance contract from the UK but I live and work in Spain so once again, even if I were self employed, which I'm not, I would have to pay tax here, which even he doesn't. He says he pays tax in the Uk, but the company is here, all his staff are here, yet he is not paying anything in Spain, which I know is illegal. His wife is listed as the only employee for their SL and she pays her own contributions, but that is just a cover. He thinks that just because they have an office address in the UK, which is his mum's house, he can get away with it.
We are now discussing our holidays, which at the very least should be in line with our rights here. Currently we get a measly 15 days plus national Spanish public holidays, yet we are in Barcelona so should get the local holidays too so that would give us the 13 or so days all workers get here. He refuses. Now my team members have agreed to back me up and we are having a team meeting this week, we all know we won't get legal contracts but at the very least want to get better holidays.
He has contradicted himself on so many levels it's pathetic, but a freelance worker is not paid any holidays or sickness, which he gives us as he says he's being kind and obviously doesn't have to! He must think we were born yesterday, the reason he does this is because he knows it's all a sham but hides behind the pretense that it's a kosher operation.
I still plan to shop him, but will wait till I am leaving. He has had a chance to redeem himself or at least attempt to placate us and instead continues to act as if he is above board, truly amazing but what I have come to expect from the banana republic style employers that flock to this land of no law and anything goes attitude.
He told me that the existing contract (not worth the paper it's written on) wouldn't be seen a legal, what a surprise! He says that if he gives me the freelance contract (obviously he'd take out the bits about the hours worked and location worked in along with holiday allowance etc) he would have to pay me from the company Spanish bank (they are an SL) rather than from their UK Guernsey offshore account. Then, he says, I'd have to pay tax and SS contributions, because, as he insists I am self employed. He insists that I can be freelance and have to work hours dictated by him and made to work in his office (actually the cellar of his house).
When I refused, he said he could give me a freelance contract from the UK but I live and work in Spain so once again, even if I were self employed, which I'm not, I would have to pay tax here, which even he doesn't. He says he pays tax in the Uk, but the company is here, all his staff are here, yet he is not paying anything in Spain, which I know is illegal. His wife is listed as the only employee for their SL and she pays her own contributions, but that is just a cover. He thinks that just because they have an office address in the UK, which is his mum's house, he can get away with it.
We are now discussing our holidays, which at the very least should be in line with our rights here. Currently we get a measly 15 days plus national Spanish public holidays, yet we are in Barcelona so should get the local holidays too so that would give us the 13 or so days all workers get here. He refuses. Now my team members have agreed to back me up and we are having a team meeting this week, we all know we won't get legal contracts but at the very least want to get better holidays.
He has contradicted himself on so many levels it's pathetic, but a freelance worker is not paid any holidays or sickness, which he gives us as he says he's being kind and obviously doesn't have to! He must think we were born yesterday, the reason he does this is because he knows it's all a sham but hides behind the pretense that it's a kosher operation.
I still plan to shop him, but will wait till I am leaving. He has had a chance to redeem himself or at least attempt to placate us and instead continues to act as if he is above board, truly amazing but what I have come to expect from the banana republic style employers that flock to this land of no law and anything goes attitude.
Last edited by pain-in-spain; May 15th 2012 at 7:16 pm.
#44
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
As usual with these threads, things get a bit off topic, although it's all been interesting reading and good to see other's views. As the OP I felt it necessary to update any of you interested. I have now had a couple of meetings with my boss who has become increasingly hostile and arrogant, mainly due to knowing he is in a very vulnerable position due to his illegality. However, he totally believes that he can give me a freelance contract so I can go to the SS to become self employed, at my own cost as well.
He told me that the existing contract (not worth the paper it's written on) wouldn't be seen a legal, what a surprise! He says that if he gives me the freelance contract (obviously he'd take out the bits about the hours worked and location worked in along with holiday allowance etc) he would have to pay me from the company Spanish bank (they are an SL) rather than from their UK Guernsey offshore account. Then, he says, I'd have to pay tax and SS contributions, because, as he insists I am self employed. He insists that I can be freelance and have to work hours dictated by him and made to work in his office (actually the cellar of his house).
When I refused, he said he could give me a freelance contract from the UK but I live and work in Spain so once again, even if I were self employed, which I'm not, I would have to pay tax here, which even he doesn't. He says he pays tax in the Uk, but the company is here, all his staff are here, yet he is not paying anything in Spain, which I know is illegal. His wife is listed as the only employee for their SL and she pays her own contributions, but that is just a cover. He thinks that just because they have an office address in the UK, which is his mum's house, he can get away with it.
We are now discussing our holidays, which at the very least should be in line with our rights here. Currently we get a measly 15 days plus national Spanish public holidays, yet we are in Barcelona so should get the local holidays too so that would give us the 13 or so days all workers get here. He refuses. Now my team members have agreed to back me up and we are having a team meeting this week, we all know we won't get legal contracts but at the very least want to get better holidays.
He has contradicted himself on so many levels it's pathetic, but a freelance worker is not paid any holidays or sickness, which he gives us as he says he's being kind and obviously doesn't have to! He must think we were born yesterday, the reason he does this is because he knows it's all a sham but hides behind the pretense that it's a kosher operation.
I still plan to shop him, but will wait till I am leaving. He has had a chance to redeem himself or at least attempt to placate us and instead continues to act as if he is above board, truly amazing but what I have come to expect from the banana republic style employers that flock to this land of no law and anything goes attitude.
He told me that the existing contract (not worth the paper it's written on) wouldn't be seen a legal, what a surprise! He says that if he gives me the freelance contract (obviously he'd take out the bits about the hours worked and location worked in along with holiday allowance etc) he would have to pay me from the company Spanish bank (they are an SL) rather than from their UK Guernsey offshore account. Then, he says, I'd have to pay tax and SS contributions, because, as he insists I am self employed. He insists that I can be freelance and have to work hours dictated by him and made to work in his office (actually the cellar of his house).
When I refused, he said he could give me a freelance contract from the UK but I live and work in Spain so once again, even if I were self employed, which I'm not, I would have to pay tax here, which even he doesn't. He says he pays tax in the Uk, but the company is here, all his staff are here, yet he is not paying anything in Spain, which I know is illegal. His wife is listed as the only employee for their SL and she pays her own contributions, but that is just a cover. He thinks that just because they have an office address in the UK, which is his mum's house, he can get away with it.
We are now discussing our holidays, which at the very least should be in line with our rights here. Currently we get a measly 15 days plus national Spanish public holidays, yet we are in Barcelona so should get the local holidays too so that would give us the 13 or so days all workers get here. He refuses. Now my team members have agreed to back me up and we are having a team meeting this week, we all know we won't get legal contracts but at the very least want to get better holidays.
He has contradicted himself on so many levels it's pathetic, but a freelance worker is not paid any holidays or sickness, which he gives us as he says he's being kind and obviously doesn't have to! He must think we were born yesterday, the reason he does this is because he knows it's all a sham but hides behind the pretense that it's a kosher operation.
I still plan to shop him, but will wait till I am leaving. He has had a chance to redeem himself or at least attempt to placate us and instead continues to act as if he is above board, truly amazing but what I have come to expect from the banana republic style employers that flock to this land of no law and anything goes attitude.
Only having one employer as it has been pointed out, you are not responsible for you own SS, they are.
If they are an SL, the will have stricter rules and regs for employmee regs than a one man band sole trader.
If you denounce them, and can prove that you have worked for them for x amount of time, they will either try to deny it or agree with you.
If they deny that you are employed by them, and you have a bogus contract , you will have them by the short and curlies.
They then will have to pay you for all the time you worked for them if they cannot establish that you were paid, if they are denying that you were in their employ, then they will not be armed with the signed payslips.
If you can establish beyond doubt the length of time you were employed, then will then have to pay the back SS, they holiday pay, and your wage up until the date of the tribunal hearing.
Also to get rid of you there will be a final payment.
on the other hand if they say that you were working for them on a self employed basis, then their SL accounts over the employement period would have to show this, and the union would go for the annulment of the self employed status, to be changed to employed status, retrospectively.
Which then would mean the back SS and such, still a short and curlies situation.
Of course whatever course of action you take, there will be an inspection of the company as a matter of course, the unions will demand to see all the contracts for the firm, and will arrange a meeting with the bosses and the gestor or accountant who is responsible for the affairs of the SL,
Being corner like that the employer might agree to arbitration to avoid the fines, inspections, and hassle, then you can name your price, and then haggle over the table, they will avoid the tribunal,
As for not being a member of a union, that is not necessary, they will still fight your case, a lot of people I know are not members but they still have had the back up from one or other of the unions, for a percentage of the money awarded to you,
Whatever you decide, I hope you get the result you want, it is a shitty way to be treated and the sooner these people learn that they will not get away with it the better.
#45
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
Re: Employer abuse in Spain
I still plan to shop him, but will wait till I am leaving. He has had a chance to redeem himself or at least attempt to placate us and instead continues to act as if he is above board, truly amazing but what I have come to expect from the banana republic style employers that flock to this land of no law and anything goes attitude.
All you need to do is report him and he would be treated very seriously indeed. He is breaking many laws. He would be likely to get a severe fine, the company closed down and even a prison sentence. You and your colleagues would probably lose your job though and whether you'd get compensation depends on whether the authorities can locate his assets.
Just so you know, the authorities inspect autonomos who only ever invoice to one client as it is a known scam on the part of the employer