embargo on house
 

hi, recently posted that a bit of land i purchased , the tax man has decided that it was worth more than i bought it for and has sent me a real hefty bill for 5.000 euros. thing is somebody told me if i dont pay the tax people may put an embargo on my house. what is this please....... what would happen

Re: embargo on house
 

I'm surprised no-one's answered this one yet. I'm not an expert but what I think they do is attach a charge to the deeds in some way and you will not be able to sell the house until it is paid - a bit like a car where you can't transfer your car with any unpaid tax or fines against it.

Re: embargo on house
 

Can't you appeal?

It sounds to me as tho they have figured that there might have been some undeclared money changing hands, and decided to hammer you.

Personally I'd have a word with my lawyer and find out what's going on.

Re: embargo on house
 

Patsywhitehair, you should take this issue very seriously. The term "Real Estate" comes from Spanish "Royal Property". In other words, this property does not belong to you but to the Royal - that means Spanish state. They require now 5000 EUR.

You have two choices: to pay 5000 EUR right away and avoid further waste of time,
or
b) to try to achieve some deal and reduce that amount.

Everything else would be a question of techicality and this would not depend on you. The real owner of your property (Spanish state) will decide what is the most appropriate way to confront you. And, in that fight you will lose the shirt...

Englishman's house is NOT his castle because it belongs to Spanish state.

Something similar is also actual in the USA. The name "Real Estate" confirms that the property does not belong to you. There is even one movie "House of Sand and Fog" which illustates how you can lose the house if you do not pay the YEARLY property tax.

Re: embargo on house
 

Although the situation is a tricky one and does need sorting out ASAP, there is no truth in what you say about "real estate" and its meaning.

The term real estate is not Spanish,:huh: it is American English so the word "real" cannot mean "royal, as in belonging to the crown or state in Spain.

Real estate just means property nothing, more nothing less.
Not state property, or royal property, just property.

Nobody is disputing the fact that you can lose your home if certain "dues" are not paid, but to base all your assumptions, on what is a "misundersood translation" is a bit too far.

Re: embargo on house
 

Sorry, I was thinking that Spanish terms in use in the USA, especially in California are obvious. For example, "Camino Real" is "Royal Road" rather than "Real Road" or "Property Road". "Real" means something that does not belong to you but to the King.

Further explanation of the word "real estate" may be found alse at: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/real_estate

Many Englishmen confuse "property" belonging to them in the UK with "real estate" belonging to the state abroad. That is why they get surprisded discovering that they have to pay each year 1% or 1.5% property tax abroad and that they will lose they house if they do not pay that tax. This tax is different than local tax for which someone gets at least some srvices, like garbage collecting.

Re: embargo on house
 

Yes, "Real" does mean Royal, but as JLFS said, Real Estate is an American term and we all know how great Americans are at misusing language :rofl:

You shouldnt scare people with your posts based on some crazy theory about where the term Real Estate comes from when you clearly dont know anything about Spanish property laws :thumbdown:

Re: embargo on house
 

To be honest, for someone who may be in the same situation, and not in a very good position to "defend" their corner, it could have been a very scary and worrying post.

A lot of mistakes and worry can be caused by "translators " doing a bad job, or even misunderstanding between speakers of the same language.

Like the Aussie doctor working in the UK, tell a patient " I am sending you home to die".

DIE was DAY said in an Ausiie accent, but I must have been hairy for the poor patient.:rofl:

Re: embargo on house
 

"real" and Royal" obviously mean royal, but the days of anything that carried the title or name real/royal meaning belonging to the crown are very outdated.

And in theEnglish speaking US, the word "real" means genuine,not royal.

As in Coca cola "its the REAL thing". real leather, etc.

AFAIK there has never been King of California, Arnie was the nearest thing, so Camino Real, just mean Kings way/road, it it just a name, it could just have easily been called Joe Bloggs Road.

Re: embargo on house
 

Dear JLFS, the best way to see who the real owner of your house in Spain (or USA) is, would be to avoid payment of 1% property tax. You will stay without youir home even for the missed minimal payment of let say couple of hunderd euro or dollar.

Someone in this forum even complained that purchasing the house in Spain does not entitle you to live in that house. According to that info, you would need to get a "license to inhabit" that house.

Another people complained that Spanish authorities can simply tear down your house if it does not comply with their regulations.

So, it is simply silly to forget who the REAL owner of your house is.

Re: embargo on house
 

Oh dear me :rofl:

The state govern the laws of the land in every country on earth, except for those run by warlords or organised crime. The "license to inhabit" the house is to make sure that the house has been built legally and conforms to building standards.

As for property tax, if you dont pay any taxes in any country than the government has the right to claim them back from you which may involve seizure of assets or imprisonment.

As far as the government knocking down your house. This has happened once so far (as far as we know) out of the 22 million houses in Spain and happened because of a corrupt and inept local council i.e. bad governence.

Re: embargo on house
 

People get behind with propetry taxes all the time, and at least here in Spain the state does not dive in head first and take your property from you.

The part about the habitation license, is for when the property is first built, it is to show that it is for living in, not a barn or garage, but a dwelling.

The same thing applies to folks in the UK about properties being demolished if they do not comply with regulations.

You cannot build on your own land in the UK if you have no permission, and if you do it will be torn down.

AND IN MOST CASES THE REAL OWNER OF THE PROPERTIES ARE THE BANKS.

That is one of the contributing factors to the crash, the sub prime market in the USA, and banks left owning nearly worthless propeties.

So where does the stateor crown own them?

Re: embargo on house
 

Some years ago it was common practice to sell property/land with black money and to undervalue.
The government got wise to this and now will not automatically accept an owners valuation, a look at the catastro will verify taxable value.
Also if you sell a property to buy another the tax is different than if you buy other additional property/land.
It appears to me that the latter probably applies to you but as bil says a lawyer not a forum would be your only option.

Re: embargo on house
 

Home ownership in some limited number of countries is associated with certain privileges: no property tax, no capital gain tax, status of "free man", protection of state intrusion without court order etc...

The residents of such countries face serious trouble when they move to some sunny countries, which are usually without sustainable industry and where the property is regarded as the main source of income for that state.

It is not fair to claim that the rules are everywhere the same and that non payment of tax will put someone in the prison.

I think it would be fair to warn the residents of the country with property privileges that they are going to face completely different situation abroad. The home which is considered an asset in their own country would turn into serious liability in other, sunny country. They should also be aware that they may not get rid of that liability easily... depending on the laws in specific country. In Florida, you may send the key of the house back to the bank. But in Spain or in Dubai, it would not be possible.

For patsywhitehair the house in a sunny country caused a problem and it would be wrong to tell him it is easy and that the authorities are slow in pursuing that money... He is in the system where his house is considered as an important source of income for the sate, and he should do everything to sort out this issue quickly.

Re: embargo on house
 

In some US states where annual property taxes are 2% of the property value then yes, you should be wary.

But annual property taxes in Spain are incredibly low, much lower than the UK council tax for example. I think someone on this forum stated that property taxes for non-residents in Spain are 0.17% of the property value per year. That is hardly a burden or an important income generator for the Government

The taxes that ARE high in Spain are property purchase and transfer taxes at 8% of the property value. For that reason in Spain you should always have the intention of wanting to live in your property for at least 10 years, otherwise you will be constantly forking out 8% of the value of the property in taxes.

Re: embargo on house
 

What a load of complete bollocks.

Re: embargo on house
 

:rofl::rofl:

I thought being a bit more sutble was the the best way to go, but looking back I think you have made the point more clearly than I did.

Re: embargo on house
 

I agree with jimeneto. As he simply said "they will attach a charge to the deeds in some way and the owner will not be able to sell the house until the tax/fine is paid".

This clearly explains the situation of the owner and the house as his liability.
As jimeneto said, the owner can not even get rid of that liability easily - before the tax/fine is paid.

Everything else is the waste of time - or load of complete b**** as jimeneto said.

Re: embargo on house
 

Or, as someone else said once,

'We are to the gods as flies are to small boys. They kill us for their sport.'

Change the word 'gods' to 'government' and it says it all really....

Re: embargo on house
 

Phew, thank God for that !

I was half expecting King Carlos and the Mrs coming to my door any minute, all ready to take over. :huh:

Doubt if they'd fancy it much though, in comparison to their own pad.

Re: embargo on house
 

Kazic, unless you live in Spain, or have expert knowledge of the legal system regarding property ownership and taxes in Spain, and not any other country in the world, then you should not be making the comments you are regarding this matter. The only real answer is to get legal advice on this matter from lawyers in Spain
Patsy, can I suggest to PM SueG from this site as she works for a legal firm in Spain which have English and Spanish lawyers.
Ignore Kazic as he/she is talking a load of tosh.

Re: embargo on house
 

This is rather fascinating. The initial question asked by petsywhitehair was rather simple:
a) He got a high tax bill of 5000 EUR
b) He heard that the authority "may put an embargo" on his house if the bill is not paid
c) He asked what this would be....

Those are the elementary issues and I assumed that patsywhitehair would easily lose his fight against administration if he is not in command of such elementary things. I have suggested that he either pay the bill or try to find some agreement.

Now, there is a suggestion that Patsy beginns the serious fight and contact the office with Spanish and English lawyers. Well done!!! We are talking about the 5000 EUR bill. What will be the bill of the lawers and what is the outcome Patsy may expect after such a procedure? What is the outcome the lawyers could promisse to gain him/her as a satisfied client?

If the lawyer requires payment of the amount X,
Patsy should be sure that the tax bill would be decreased at least for the amount X. Otherwise, the losses of patsywhitehair would be only increased.

Re: embargo on house
 

Patsy...I totally agree with Mike, PM Sue G she is really helpful and has the best information at her fingertips.

Rosemary

Re: embargo on house
 

I recently contacted a Spanish lawyer ( English speaking ) over a similar threat, although not tax related.
I was given advice which I followed.

This was my first contact with this lawyer although we share friends.

Total cost €0

Also he advised me that it is possible to sell property with an embargo on it, however the purchaser would be well advised to have the matter sorted before purchase. Certainly I would not purchase property with an embargo on it unless there was some serious financial advantage.

The lawyer was recently rewarded for his advice as I used him for another matter.

Re: embargo on house
 

You can only "fight" an embargo on your property if you can prove that the amount you payed was covered in full by a chq or bank transfer.The Hacienda will check you bank accounts for any cash amounts withdrawn for a period before and after the date you signed.I had the same happen to me two years ago and my lawyer (for free) advised me to pay.Also be aware that the amount outstanding will increase with interest.:(

Re: embargo on house
 

That presupposes that there are no other less tangible benefits. If the tax office is proven correct, will that then increase other financial responsibilities?

A lawyer's advice is seldom worthless, if only for the peace of mind that it brings in knowing you are following the correct path.

Re: embargo on house
 

You need the services of a good gestor.

Re: embargo on house
 

The greates value of BritishExpats is that it offers different points of view what can help someone to find a do-it-yourself solution.

Of course, if someone offeres a free lawyer (especially English speaking in foreign country) this would be the different story. I assume that patsywhitehair does not have access to free lawyer and that this was the reason for the original posting.

We are talking about 5000 Euro bill which could make a lot of trouble if not paid. What would be the best outcome for patsywhitehair?

I believe nothing else but a bill reduction.
How big reduction? To 3000 Euro? I doubt that Spanish tax authorities would make such a wrong valuation. May be 4000 Euro?? Bill of 4000 Euro would mean savings of 1000 Euro for patsywhitehair.

So, patsywhitehair will indeed need a very good English speaking lawyer with Spanish experience who will do his best to fight for 1000 Euro not charging her a penny. The good, bi-lingual lawyers usually prefer tougher, and more valuable problems.

If patsywhitehair indeed decides to go ahaed and fight for 1000 Euro, there is a risk that court costs would be higher. It is to be expected that some official translator would be also involved. Besides that, tax authorities can easily find additional issues against patsywhitehair.... just for the sake of not losing the face. If the trial is lost, I doubt that the lawyer of the another side would forgive patsywhitehair his fees and daily rates.

Re: embargo on house
 

Real Estate refers to land and fixed improvements such as fences building etc.

"Real" has its origin as belonging to the King. It was introduced into England along with feudalism by the Normans and thus into English.

I think this was raised in this forum a couple of years ago.

Jim

Re: embargo on house
 

If PW doesnt do something PDQ she will have to pay the tax because of time constraints.

She doesnt need a lawyer, she needs a good local Gestor.
This matter is not dealt with in a Court.

Re: embargo on house
 

Kazic, firstly Patsy is a female.. as the little pink icon next to her name indicates, and despite what you think, the only way is for her to contact someone in Spain who has the information and advice at their fingertips, which is why I suggested SueG, she will be able to tell her who is best to handle the problem. it may be that the best way is to use a gestor, or a lawyer, but only someone with specific information about the situation as oit applies to Patsy in SPAIN will be able to give her good advice.

Re: embargo on house
 

The Gestors are suitable for the straight forward issues which patsywhitehair could do herself after some investigations.

The main problem is that we do not know what patsywhitehair wants.
The question of pastsywhitehair was: "thing is somebody told me if i dont pay the tax people may put an embargo on my house. what is this please....... what would happen.."

The intention of patsywhitehair was may be just to get the information that property tax needs to be paid? May be to postpone the payment? May be to challenge the bill? May be to confront local tax authorities? May be to confront the tax system?

From the postings of other participants, I got the feeling that the issue was rather important and serious so that (good, english-speaking) lawyer rather than gestor was required.

May be there will be no need for the great trial "Patsywhitehair vs. Kingdom of Spain" at all. Especially if only 1000 Euro is in question.

So, the gestor looks like the most plausible solution!

Re: embargo on house
 

A lawyer will pass the case to a gestor and then add a hefty sum on top of the gestors fee.

Re: embargo on house
 

No, a Gestor is what is required. It's a simple tax issue - you don't need a lawyer for that.

Have you spent much time living in Spain? Your posts would seem to indicate that you have not.

Re: embargo on house
 

I agree completely that the lawyers are not good and since my posting #22 I was strongly against their engagement. I was assuming that the issue is rather simple. However, I was under steady pressure by other postings that patsywhitehair needs to get a top advice.... what contradicts the probably simple issue.

After having more than 30 postings by many senior members for such a simple issue - we have a happy ending! Patsywhitehair has a lot of choices for making her decision!!!

Re: embargo on house
 

It didn't need 30 postings. It just needed NOT to get clouded by extraneous matters.

It needed someone to give the correct obvious advice. Get professional advice rather than take advice from anyone on this forum. It's not our money .... it's hers!

Re: embargo on house
 

Right I have managed to keep out of this one so far:D Mike and Rosemary thank you for your kind comments. Patsy we can help if you want to contact me by pm. You can certainly appeal and we have clients who have done so - some have won some have not - but before passing any further comment I would need to see the paperwork. Yes an embargo can be put on your property - it would not stop you selling because you can then pay the sums due (together with any interest accrued) when you attend at the Notary for the sale.

P.S. Not boasting but am not employed by a legal firm - am in partnership with three friends - one of whom is an English Solicitor so we cover all legal aspects in Spain and England (well perhaps boasting a little bit!):o