Nige

I think that this 'Antonio' seems to have a personal liking for Eastern Europe for some reason best known to him. I really cannot understand why he wants to label "Sociedad de tasacion" QUOTE really nasty guys UNQUOTE.
I would like to know what evidence he has to make this accusation. I would also like to know why he continues to call GOVERNMENT by it's Spanish name when he appears to write in English perfectly well. I can only believe that this 'Antonio' is a TROLL.

ant_samaran

Hi Nige,

Sorry to dissapoint you but I am not a "Troll". That TINSA (a "sociedad de tasacion") is manipulating is well known in Spain and is has been said even by the Spanish goberment (I don´t know how you want me to write "goberment"). Here you have a link that you may find of your interest:

http://www.viviendadigna.com/nuke/mo...article&sid=78

However Nige I am sorry if you feel offended by my comment and just let you know that I am not willing to start any "verbal fight" with anybody in this forum. And by the way...I have not personal interests whatsoever on people buying properpy in East Europe. I am sure there are very cheap properties all around Southamerica too or even in New Zealand. I was just suggesting the nearest location.

Sorry again if I offended you.

Antonio.

Nige

I told you that the translation of GOBERMENT is GOVERMENT.
You post a 3rd hand 'link' to some insubstantiated comment made by someone using the name Desperado and then use this as your right to say that TINSA are QUOTE really nasty guys UNQUOTE.
Please give some substantiated facts or personal experience rather than 3rd hand from a 'desperado'.
I have some 1st hand experience of the figures reported in the half yearly valuations by town and they are correct as far as the situation I am familiar with.

ant_samaran

Could you give us a link to that so everyone can see that?

Do you live in Spain Nige? We Spaniards laugh at the figures given by the goverment (with "v"). You got some examples of what people think of TINSA here (hope you can read Spanish):

http://www.rankia.com/foro/mensaje.asp?mensaje=29110

http://www.notescapes.com/netknow/mo...um=6&topic=187

And that is what we laugh at:

http://www.tinsa.es/espanol/Nuevos%2...s/NOTA2T04.pdf

I don´t know if you are in Spain Nige but if you are you know for sure that nobody believes what this guys say. Do you know why? Well while the guys from TINSA are telling us properties have gone up 17% this year you can see this kind of news:

http://www.elconfidencial.com/notici.../11/2005&pass=

Believe what you want Nige. Perhaps you bought some property in Spain and know you are afraid of losing money? Well that doesn´t change reality.

Antonio.

Nige

OK. Please tell me who TINSA are and what there connection is with the link I posted earlier for the Sociedad de Tasación,S.A. : http://213.195.76.140/html/index.html

Is the Sociedad de Tasación, S.A. connected with TINSA ?
In my experience the FACTS and FIGURES shown in the Sociedad de Tasación reflect the correct position. In other words, they have informed about the previous years average values in the locality I bought and correctly (in my eyes) show the up to date value. How do I know? Because I was a buyer and a seller during both periods.
Please tell me if the last bulletin (July 2005) is, in your opinion or of the other contributors to other fora, misleading. The last bulletin published by Sociedad de Tasación is here: http://213.195.76.140/pdf/05-1_Dossi...a_Espa%F1a.pdf

ant_samaran

Hi Nige,

TINSA is the biggest "sociedad de tasación" in Spain. Here you got a link to them:

http://www.tinsa.es/espanol/NEWS/news.html

These guys are in the news every now and then and the have been saying for years that property in Spain is going up about 17% a year. According to the links you have given us property has gone up from 4% to 5% depending on the area. Therefore these guys are not telling the truth.

That they don´t tell the truth don´t prevent them from being on the mayor papers. Why do you think is that?

The Spanish economy has a huge dependance on property prices (well at the moment is our biggest industry). No paper in Spain will ever say that prices are frozen and are starting to go down in many areas because that would cause a huge economic crisis.

That is why I say that everything that looks nice on paper is good enough in Spain.

Antonio.

ant_samaran

And while TINSA tells us that house prices have gone up 17% this year we find the following:

http://www.elconfidencial.com/notici.../11/2005&pass=

ivanmax

Check this link please:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_property_bubble

ivanmax

This is also quite interesting (sorry it is in Spanish but you can try to translate it in Google):

http://www.jstk.org/proyectos/kittin/

There are talks all over Spain about house prices dropping enormously. I don´t know much about economics but certainly most of the people I know are saving their money for better times and nobody seems to be willing to pay the outrageous prices anymore.

maryg

I was looking at the kyero site and came across this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kyero/

You are able to download / view tables of house prices by region.....looking at the town where we've bought it seems that house prices have fallen........however, we didn't buy with the intent of making money, so no big problem there.

I'll appologise now if I'm out of my league in this discussion, I just thought it might be of interest to see the figures.
Mary

ivanmax

Thanks a lot for that link Mary. Do you know who has set that website thought? Is the info reliable?

It would be great to know.

Iván.

Nige

All this recent flurry of activity reminds me that there are three kinds of lies: "lies, damned lies, and statistics". When TINSA was commented upon it sounded as though this information was relevant and recent. In fact it was over 15 months 'stale' and the poster "ant_samaran" has not provided any up to date evidence about house price trends. He distracted attention from the real subject discussed. As far as the Spanish Property Bubble is concerned, it was not too long ago (say 2 years ) that many economists, including one from the Economist paper itself, forecast a serious UK collapse in house prices. What has happened is that prices have slowed from the extraordinary increases in the previous cycle and in some areas (like London) have shown reductions. This is part of the market mechanisms. Both Spain and UK have a huge dependence on property prices to maintain a stable economic environment. Neither want to see a collapse as this would lead to serious problems. Many commentators mentioned the unusual circumstances when Spain switched over from the Pestea to the Euro (2002) and saying that there was so much black money needing to find a home and that this would find it's way into property. That mini bubble (in some areas) has now finished.

We are also seeing the young (mainly) complaining about the rise in values and the affordability of living and finding a roof over their heads. The reference to Art. 47 of the Spanish Constitution whereby: "All Spaniards are entitled to enjoy decent and adequate housing" is one of many ideals written into the Constitution (the latest of which was drafted and approved as recently as 1978) and of course in a perfect world, those who cannot afford private housing should be helped with finding decent and adequate housing. I would suggest that private developers, who have the incentive to build only if they can make money, have looked upon the overall planning system in Spain as a bit of a joke. And is there enough done to provide affordable housing to younger people in major cities?

I would argue that the land available for housing in Spain is vastly more than in UK. One only has to fly over inland Spain to see the enormous swathes of country and the pockets of housing in the traditional Spanish way. It is mainly in Madrid and Barcelona and large cities where 'expansion' is more difficult. But even in a city like Madrid, it is perfectly reasonable to see newer satellite townships developing with good links to the centre.
So who controls the planning and development of land in Spain which is fundamentally one of the main contributors to values? In Andalucia, the Junta has prohibited new building in the "campo", except in very specific and few cases. This is sensible but it appears to me to be a sort of knee jerk reaction to certain sloppy and in some cases corrupt local Town Halls. But with more efficient local government and with a better grip on planning regulations, the trend, in my opinion, is one where the private developer will find it more difficult to easily build speculatively so the boom in new properties will slow. Or is this 'pie in the sky' and as with many other things that happen in Spain, the opposite to what you think is likely to occur !

Charles_Austin

You may want to have a look to this (sorry but I had to use one of those terrible online translators...). Just so you can see what can you get for the price of a 2 bedroom apartment in Spain:

Let us see c?o sees from aqu?la "real estate bubble" Yankee.

Euro remembers 1 = 1,17$ and 1 m2 = 10 pies2 1.

Seattle. In one of surroundings m? spectacular of the world, seat of companies like Microsoft and Boeing between many others, the Puget Sound and bell?imo Washington lake with the Rainier mount, of 5 km of height with eternal snows, bottom. The metropolitan?ea has about 3 million inhabitants. M2, 6 sell a house of 210 habitaci?es by 286,000 euros, near the center.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/rfs/113574338.html 2.

Portland. The city "progre" of the U.S.A., with a good system of p?lico transport, in very civilized and beautiful state of Oreg? (name espa?l, obvious). A?s sells a house of 220 m2 with dot to have less than 10. It is not my style but aqu?est? She is yours by 310,000 euros.

http://portland.craigslist.org/rfs/113612362.html 3.

Minneapolis. Along with Saint Paul forms the Twin Cities, a metropolitan?ea of 2,5 million inhabitants in a zone surrounded by lakes and parks, seat of compa?as like Cargill, 3M and Honeywell. In this case we have several houses without intermediaries on sale. It chooses the one that you please. It has for all the pockets.

http://msp.whoshome.com/homes-for-it leaves-by-owner/

Wages in the USA:

http://www.bestjobsusa.com/sections/...2002/index.asp

laramovil

The next 12 of December a new "land law" is going to be passed in Spain. This will prevent nasty council mayors to obtain profits from giving licences to built flats.

Also illegal properties may start to be pulled down. If you are going to buy something make sure it is legal. Ask always for a second opinion after talking to your solicitor. Otherwise you may lose your money!

ant_samaran

We Spanish people have been waiting for that law for a long time. Let´s see what happens.

Interest rates are going up now in Spain and people is starting to be afraid of not being able to pay what they owe to their banks. I think we will start seing drops in prices withing months.

Antonio.