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Do we take the plunge
Hi,
I am married and have two children aged 10 and 12. We as a family have had itchy feet for some time now and are seriously looking at relocating to Spain (probably the Costa Blanca or Costa Del Sol area). I wonder if anybody can offer any advice on:- 1) Schools - should we go English speaking or Spanish, and what is the quality of the Education system like. 2) Finding work - I'll basically have a go at anything but would be very interested in Property Management or something similar. What are the opportunities ? 3) The standard of living - how are you finding it ? 4) In general, the thoughts of anybody who has already taken the plunge. Are you happy ? Any regrets etc etc ? Look forward to hearing from you. Gazzauk :confused: |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by gazzauk
Hi,
I am married and have two children aged 10 and 12. We as a family have had itchy feet for some time now and are seriously looking at relocating to Spain (probably the Costa Blanca or Costa Del Sol area). I wonder if anybody can offer any advice on:- 1) Schools - should we go English speaking or Spanish, and what is the quality of the Education system like. No personal experience of the schools but the English speakers are expensive. There are many fovourable comments on the Spanish ones but it would depend on where you relocate, the Costa Blanca has some good, but some not so good, schools. Have a look at the Costa Blanca MBs. 2) Finding work - I'll basically have a go at anything but would be very interested in Property Management or something similar. What are the opportunities ? Property Management is well oversubscribed and is a rat race over here. With the current property boom stagnating and the vast numbers of off-plan properties reaching the final stage payment in the next two years, the market is about to become flooded; not a crash, but a very bumpy landing with a lot of pain and grief for those who bought as an investment! 3) The standard of living - how are you finding it ? Speaking from the Costa del Sol, the standard of living knocks UK for six. The 'tourist traps' are becoming very expensive, but if you follow the Spanish the cost of living is 30% cheaper than UK. It's even cheaper up campo, but that would not give your children much of a start in life unless they remain there. 4) In general, the thoughts of anybody who has already taken the plunge. Are you happy ? Any regrets etc etc ? Took the plunge two years ago. We are very content with our choice, My partner went back to Wiltshire for five weeks last year, to teach ATC when the college was swamped with students, and could not wait to get back to Estepona. As many have said in this, and other MBs in Spain, once you have selected a region, have a longer holiday preferably not high season, check out the schools (talk to other Brits, and Spanish if you speak some of the lingo) and sus the area. :confused: Hope this is of some help. Others here, with young families, will no doubt have more advice on schools - most of us help each other out here :) The best of luck with your venture. Jock |
Re: Do we take the plunge
I did two years in Spain. I wish I'd rented out my place in London and not actually sold up. Unless you're really sure you're going to like it then trying it out for a while is probably a better idea than selling up and moving lock stock.
I've now left and am in the US. My removals guys told me that they move as many out of Spain as they do in. My sister lives out there with her family but sent her 15 year old back to school in London as she feels the education standards in England are far superior to the the international school she was going to. Future career and university ops are far better than in the Costas and were also a deciding factor for my sister's decision. Her youngest is 6 and now fluent in Valenciano and Spanish. She's at Spanish school and seems to be loving it so it will be far easier for her to go to a Spanish uni and have a chance at a decent career over there. I found opinions divided between those that loved Spain and those that couldn't wait to leave. I fell into the latter group! |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by sibsie
I did two years in Spain. I wish I'd rented out my place in London and not actually sold up. Unless you're really sure you're going to like it then trying it out for a while is probably a better idea than selling up and moving lock stock.
I've now left and am in the US. My removals guys told me that they move as many out of Spain as they do in. My sister lives out there with her family but sent her 15 year old back to school in London as she feels the education standards in England are far superior to the the international school she was going to. Future career and university ops are far better than in the Costas and were also a deciding factor for my sister's decision. Her youngest is 6 and now fluent in Valenciano and Spanish. She's at Spanish school and seems to be loving it so it will be far easier for her to go to a Spanish uni and have a chance at a decent career over there. I found opinions divided between those that loved Spain and those that couldn't wait to leave. I fell into the latter group! Wondering what it was that you didn't like? what seems to be the consensus among people who do not like Spain? Just asking because I told my gf we are moving there...so better be sure! LOL!! |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
Wondering what it was that you didn't like? what seems to be the consensus among people who do not like Spain? Just asking because I told my gf we are moving there...so better be sure! LOL!!
I moved here 2.5 years ago from London where I was born and bred. My father is Spanish and although not Catalan, all my Spanish family have always lived in Barcelona, where I spent all my childhood holidays. I didn´t leave London because I hated it, I just had a desire to live the rest of my life in my father´s country - I was also spurred on because my parents retired here 5 years ago and I missed them very much. My partner, also a Londoner, was just as keen as me to move so it seemed as if we were embarking on an exciting new life. I gave up a good job and we sold our house, paid off the mortgage and with the money left over bought a flat right in the centre of Barcelona, equivalent to living in Soho! I did a lot of research, but to be honest, as I´d been coming here all my life I felt I pretty much new the score (which of course, I didn´t). I hadn´t been able to secure a job here before leaving the UK (sadly, we are not in the luxurious position of having an income from the UK and have several more years of working life in us) as it´s impossible to do so from outside the country. I was cautiously optimistic about finding work and as we had savings to last a year, I was convinced something would turn up in that time. Also, I assumed that Barcelona, being an important city with established commerce and a cosmopolitan outlook and community would be an easier bet than the expat Brit dominated costas. For the first few months we were swept along by the excitement of a our new life and with the massive task of refurbishing our flat. However, gradually things started to bug me about life here and I began to make comparisons to London. I realised that Barcelona was actually very provincial with small minded people and a general lack of professionalism and sloppy attitude. Even in a so-called capital city which promotes itself as dynamic and forward looking, it seemed time had stood still. I know many people move to Spain for what they consider a more laid back, stress free life, but just dealing with everyday life here causes stress. Before I lived here I considered myself half Spanish but now I realise I am completely English, culturally and in my general outlook on life. I am a city person and although I like the idea of living in a rustic finca with lemon trees I know I would get bored very quickly. I assumed that Barcelona would satisfy my urban needs, but sadly I am left lacking in many things. Aside from this, Barcelona has caught up very quickly with all the negatives of London. Crime has increased 100%, illegal immigration is much worse than London and I live in an area full of grafitti that looks like the Bronx. I came here to live amongst the Spanish but find myself living in an area that is 80% South American, Philipinos and Morrocans. Apparently, by 2015, one in 3 of the population will be from these countries! The other issue is financial. Many of us moving from the UK think we will be able to survive on less in Spain because of the lifestyle. It´s amazing that people think a bit of sunshine can take all your problems away. Over here the salaries are amongst the lowest in Europe and unemployment the highest. The cost of living here in Barcelona is very high, with most things being the same price as in London and in many cases higher. Even if it were as cheap as it used to be, the fact that salaries are a quarter of what we earn in the UK means there is a serious imbalance. For ages I used to compare the euro against the pound, for example a pint of beer is 3euros which is about 2.10 pounds, about the same as London. However, when you realise that most people earn about 4 euros an hour, that means that a pint of beer costs 3 quarters of their hourly salary. In London someone may earn 10 pounds an hour, which means a pint of beer is 1 fifth of their hourly salary. Looking at it like this, it´s not difficult to see that Barcelona is actually more expensive. With real estate prices on a par with London, most Spanish families incomes are just not enough to survive. With all this in mind, at present I am undecided about my future. My dream of living in Barcelona has not been fulfilled and I am disappointed in what I have found. Perhaps I came here with unrealistic expectations and perhaps my standards are too high. I am also worried that if I return to London I may also be disappointed because since I have lived here I have idolised it more than ever and this is always a dangerous thing to do. I am still willing to see what the next few months hold but I am not expecting any miracles to happen. In a nut shell, I would advise anyone thinking of moving to Spain to think very carefully. Many people aren´t willing to tell the truth about it´s reality and there are too many TV programmes promoting the great lifestyle here that overshadow the negative side. If I could have my old life back in London tomorrow I would jump at the chance. However, once you´ve moved and effectively burnt your bridges it´s not always that easy. I´d like to know if there is anyone out there who´s made a successful move back to the UK? |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by pain-in-spain
In a nut shell, I would advise anyone thinking of moving to Spain to think very carefully. Many people aren´t willing to tell the truth about it´s reality and there are too many TV programmes promoting the great lifestyle here that overshadow the negative side. If I could have my old life back in London tomorrow I would jump at the chance. However, once you´ve moved and effectively burnt your bridges it´s not always that easy. I´d like to know if there is anyone out there who´s made a successful move back to the UK?
I left Spain for the US but several of my friends, along with my parents have successfully moved back to England, specifically London. My parents are totally thrilled to be back and you'll never hear them say a bad word about England now! My friends who made the move back have settled in again really quickly and are very happy to be back. Personally I postively skipped to the airport when I was leaving! ;) |
Re: Do we take the plunge
What many people dont appreciate when they emigrate is that you need to consider all parts of your life, not just the job aspects, but your health, money, family, friends etc.
Language is also an issue and without speaking the language you could be in for a big culture shock. So my advice would be to do your research fully and know what you are getting yourself into otherwise you could be spending your life savings on something that will make you unhappy |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by pain-in-spain
Just stumbled accross this discussion and felt compelled to chip in my 10cents worth. My story and experience of Spain is as follows:
I moved here 2.5 years ago from London where I was born and bred. My father is Spanish and although not Catalan, all my Spanish family have always lived in Barcelona, where I spent all my childhood holidays. I didn´t leave London because I hated it, I just had a desire to live the rest of my life in my father´s country - I was also spurred on because my parents retired here 5 years ago and I missed them very much. My partner, also a Londoner, was just as keen as me to move so it seemed as if we were embarking on an exciting new life. I gave up a good job and we sold our house, paid off the mortgage and with the money left over bought a flat right in the centre of Barcelona, equivalent to living in Soho! I did a lot of research, but to be honest, as I´d been coming here all my life I felt I pretty much new the score (which of course, I didn´t). I hadn´t been able to secure a job here before leaving the UK (sadly, we are not in the luxurious position of having an income from the UK and have several more years of working life in us) as it´s impossible to do so from outside the country. I was cautiously optimistic about finding work and as we had savings to last a year, I was convinced something would turn up in that time. Also, I assumed that Barcelona, being an important city with established commerce and a cosmopolitan outlook and community would be an easier bet than the expat Brit dominated costas. For the first few months we were swept along by the excitement of a our new life and with the massive task of refurbishing our flat. However, gradually things started to bug me about life here and I began to make comparisons to London. I realised that Barcelona was actually very provincial with small minded people and a general lack of professionalism and sloppy attitude. Even in a so-called capital city which promotes itself as dynamic and forward looking, it seemed time had stood still. I know many people move to Spain for what they consider a more laid back, stress free life, but just dealing with everyday life here causes stress. Before I lived here I considered myself half Spanish but now I realise I am completely English, culturally and in my general outlook on life. I am a city person and although I like the idea of living in a rustic finca with lemon trees I know I would get bored very quickly. I assumed that Barcelona would satisfy my urban needs, but sadly I am left lacking in many things. Aside from this, Barcelona has caught up very quickly with all the negatives of London. Crime has increased 100%, illegal immigration is much worse than London and I live in an area full of grafitti that looks like the Bronx. I came here to live amongst the Spanish but find myself living in an area that is 80% South American, Philipinos and Morrocans. Apparently, by 2015, one in 3 of the population will be from these countries! The other issue is financial. Many of us moving from the UK think we will be able to survive on less in Spain because of the lifestyle. It´s amazing that people think a bit of sunshine can take all your problems away. Over here the salaries are amongst the lowest in Europe and unemployment the highest. The cost of living here in Barcelona is very high, with most things being the same price as in London and in many cases higher. Even if it were as cheap as it used to be, the fact that salaries are a quarter of what we earn in the UK means there is a serious imbalance. For ages I used to compare the euro against the pound, for example a pint of beer is 3euros which is about 2.10 pounds, about the same as London. However, when you realise that most people earn about 4 euros an hour, that means that a pint of beer costs 3 quarters of their hourly salary. In London someone may earn 10 pounds an hour, which means a pint of beer is 1 fifth of their hourly salary. Looking at it like this, it´s not difficult to see that Barcelona is actually more expensive. With real estate prices on a par with London, most Spanish families incomes are just not enough to survive. With all this in mind, at present I am undecided about my future. My dream of living in Barcelona has not been fulfilled and I am disappointed in what I have found. Perhaps I came here with unrealistic expectations and perhaps my standards are too high. I am also worried that if I return to London I may also be disappointed because since I have lived here I have idolised it more than ever and this is always a dangerous thing to do. I am still willing to see what the next few months hold but I am not expecting any miracles to happen. In a nut shell, I would advise anyone thinking of moving to Spain to think very carefully. Many people aren´t willing to tell the truth about it´s reality and there are too many TV programmes promoting the great lifestyle here that overshadow the negative side. If I could have my old life back in London tomorrow I would jump at the chance. However, once you´ve moved and effectively burnt your bridges it´s not always that easy. I´d like to know if there is anyone out there who´s made a successful move back to the UK? I really appreciate your insight. I feel in many ways the same as yourself. Do you mind answering a few questions about Barcelona? many thanks for the great post! Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
I really appreciate your insight. I feel in many ways the same as yourself. Do you mind answering a few questions about Barcelona?
many thanks for the great post! Frank Feel free to post your questions here or get in touch with me direct via this site. |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by ScotinSpain
In general the standard of living for your family will improve here and children settle quicker that adults. There are always those who are not suited to life in Spain and return after a few months blaming Spain, the Spanish, the Brits out here, and anyone but themselves for their ill considered move, but they are few and far between.
Hope this is of some help. Others here, with young families, will no doubt have more advice on schools - most of us help each other out here :) The best of luck with your venture. Jock This was a really helpful note. I was wondering if you or anyone here, can make some recommendations as to how to find a nice rental property without getting robbed blind? There was also a reference to 'draconinan' real estate laws. Can anyone elablorate on that? I would hate to be on ethe street with my cat and computer. many thanks Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by pain-in-spain
Thanks for your response. I am happy to answer any questions and be of further assistance. If I had had the opportunity to read such comments about my future host country when I originally left the UK, I may have had a very different experience so far (perhaps).
Feel free to post your questions here or get in touch with me direct via this site. Thansks for the invite. It is great that you are in Barcelona as that is our intial target city. So allow us to ask you some very pedestrian questions if we may. I'm in my mid 50's, a writer and in the internet development space. It is has been quiet hell for the last little while, and I and the gal are looking to slow things down considerably, with out checking off the face of the earth or becoming total lushes. We are in fact sports fanatics, we run mini triathalons, need good access to a 50 meter pool and a nice running area, and a quiet safe neighbourhood. We were thinking of finding some 'off the beaten path' place on a beach somewhere, and just watching the sun set. But as we read these posts, and we think about it, we realize that we still want to do things, still want to do business, just not as crazy as we have been...so the beach may have to wait. So my question is, can Barcelona be a good place for two mid 50's people such as this? I have read varying reports about the city, as filled with drugs, prostitution, and crime of various sorts. And we have heard that 'quiet' is hard to find. That of course can't be true. If you would mind just commenting that would be great. Secondly on the more pedestrain things, like finding a nice place that suits our life style..what areas should we consider? What would oh say 1,000 sq foot place cost us? How easy (or hard) is it to get high speed internet? What are the usual down payments and lead times for things like phones, power etc? Anyway..we appreciate yours and everyones time and comments. yours kindly Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
I was wondering if you or anyone here, can make some recommendations as to how to find a nice rental property without getting robbed blind?
There was also a reference to 'draconinan' real estate laws. Can anyone elablorate on that? I would hate to be on the street with my cat and computer. You should not be robbed blind for rental property as the short term, Easter/summer rental business is dwindling at an astronomic rate all over Spain as rentals in other Med countries are cheaper to rent and much cheaper for attractions and eating. In my small Urb of 120 properties near Estepona we have had half a dozen properties let for 1-5 year periods recently (mainly Spanish owned), but the Company managing 23 short term seasonal rental properties had to drop their prices by 50% mid summer to fill them and is pulling out completely shortly. Try the local papers, even the free, English speaking papers have a property rental section. Properties with 'for rent' (se alquile) signs in the window are usually for short term, expensive rentals. There can be problems letting for over 12 months, so many only let for 11 months. However that would give you a feel for the area you are considering. In general the Spanish will accept a lower rental rate than those who are speculating in property values. Make sure you read the contract very carefully with a lawyer before signing. In general avoid Rental Agencies, who charge high fees (which you end up paying), and deal direct with the owner (through a lawyer - which he pays for!). I am not sure what you mean by 'draconinan' real estate laws. In general the tennant has more rights here than in UK, hence the preferred 11 month rentals; after 12 months it can be very difficult to get the tennant out. If you are renting, the 'Land Grab' law will not affect you, and that's only in the North in any case (although Andalucia did have a try at a similar rulling). The best of luck in your search, I'm sure you will find somewhere, what area are you considering? Jock |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by ScotinSpain
Hi thatmtnman,
You should not be robbed blind for rental property as the short term, Easter/summer rental business is dwindling at an astronomic rate all over Spain as rentals in other Med countries are cheaper to rent and much cheaper for attractions and eating. In my small Urb of 120 properties near Estepona we have had half a dozen properties let for 1-5 year periods recently (mainly Spanish owned), but the Company managing 23 short term seasonal rental properties had to drop their prices by 50% mid summer to fill them and is pulling out completely shortly. Try the local papers, even the free, English speaking papers have a property rental section. Properties with 'for rent' (se alquile) signs in the window are usually for short term, expensive rentals. There can be problems letting for over 12 months, so many only let for 11 months. However that would give you a feel for the area you are considering. In general the Spanish will accept a lower rental rate than those who are speculating in property values. Make sure you read the contract very carefully with a lawyer before signing. In general avoid Rental Agencies, who charge high fees (which you end up paying), and deal direct with the owner (through a lawyer - which he pays for!). I am not sure what you mean by 'draconinan' real estate laws. In general the tennant has more rights here than in UK, hence the preferred 11 month rentals; after 12 months it can be very difficult to get the tennant out. If you are renting, the 'Land Grab' law will not affect you, and that's only in the North in any case (although Andalucia did have a try at a similar rulling). The best of luck in your search, I'm sure you will find somewhere, what area are you considering? Jock Many many thanks for the note! We are thinking of renting initally in Barcelona and using it as a base to explore from. Originally we were looking for a nice quiet beach area, trying to avoid the tourists...but it seems that can't really be done remotely. Or can it? What does an apartment rent for in your area? Can you explain to me what is going on with properties values and why they are dropping so dramatically? cheers Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by ScotinSpain
Hi thatmtnman,
the 'Land Grab' law will not affect you, and that's only in the North in any case (although Andalucia did have a try at a similar rulling). |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
We are thinking of renting initally in Barcelona and using it as a base to explore from. Originally we were looking for a nice quiet beach area, trying to avoid the tourists...but it seems that can't really be done remotely. Or can it?
What does an apartment rent for in your area? Can you explain to me what is going on with properties values and why they are dropping so dramatically? Should have noted you were thinking of Barcelona in an earlier post :o . Can't speak for that area specifically as I'm down on the Costa del Sol, others from up north may help with Barcelona prices. Small, 1 bedroom apartments rent for anything from 350€ a month, larger, 3 or 4 bedroom ones from 600€ a month. That's on the Costa, property up campo (in the country) is significantly cheaper, but you will not find much work, you'll need good technical Spanish, and you may have trouble with utilities like telephones, Internet access etc. etc. This I guess is why you are looking at Barcelona. Regards property prices, there have been a number of articles in the UK Sunday papers recently on this subject which identify two basic problems: 1. There is a HUGH off-plan glut about to hit the market i.e. tens of thousands. This is where speculators buy prior to the start of building (hence off-plan), pay a deposit plus the first stage payment and then hope to sell just before the final stage payment and 7% tax. In the past this was an easy way to make significant sums with relatively low risk. However selling at the third payment is becoming increasingly difficult, indeed impossible in some areas, with so many built when the bubble was at a high and all coming on the market together. Many speculators are finding they are saddled with a property (more than one in many cases) they do not want, can not offload, are are stuck with it/them. Additionally the Government is looking for 35% CGT on the 'profit', this was ignored in the past. 2. Add to this the DRAMATIC drop in renting potential recently and it puts a very different complection on 'investing' out here. Reports say the renting market dropped between 30 -50% this summer. Again there are a number of reasons: gready rental managers, estate agencies and property managers, the high and rising cost of tourist attractions out here, the poor state of the golf courses and extortionate green fees compared with say Turkey, Cyprus and USA. More and more Brits and Irish know someone with property in Spain and do a private deal hence no agents fees, tax or commercial mark-ups. It is very much a buyers market with the asking price just a starter and room for significant negotiation. The favourite way to buy is direct from the seller, thus avoiding much larger agents fees than in UK; however the Spanish agents do offer much better deals. However you MUST always consult a lawyer...... I don't think property prices are DROPPING dramitically, but the happy days of 20%+ annual increase are long gone, rental returns have plumetted, and the Spanish tax man is becoming more interested. All the above leads to more and more owners looking for longer term rentals and thus lower rents, good news for you :) . Hope this helps put the property market into some perspective. Spanish property has always gone in cycles but, with the expanding EU, more cheap flights to more countries, the simplicity of dealing in Euros, etc. the 'easy money' from property speculation here is gone forever. As they say in the adverts 'The relative price of your property may fall as well as rise, and past performance is no guarantee of future potential!' Good luck with the rental hunting. I moved here a little over 2 years ago, and have not regretted a single minute. Jock |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
Dear 'Pain',
Thansks for the invite. It is great that you are in Barcelona as that is our intial target city. So allow us to ask you some very pedestrian questions if we may. I'm in my mid 50's, a writer and in the internet development space. It is has been quiet hell for the last little while, and I and the gal are looking to slow things down considerably, with out checking off the face of the earth or becoming total lushes. We are in fact sports fanatics, we run mini triathalons, need good access to a 50 meter pool and a nice running area, and a quiet safe neighbourhood. We were thinking of finding some 'off the beaten path' place on a beach somewhere, and just watching the sun set. But as we read these posts, and we think about it, we realize that we still want to do things, still want to do business, just not as crazy as we have been...so the beach may have to wait. So my question is, can Barcelona be a good place for two mid 50's people such as this? I have read varying reports about the city, as filled with drugs, prostitution, and crime of various sorts. And we have heard that 'quiet' is hard to find. That of course can't be true. If you would mind just commenting that would be great. Secondly on the more pedestrain things, like finding a nice place that suits our life style..what areas should we consider? What would oh say 1,000 sq foot place cost us? How easy (or hard) is it to get high speed internet? What are the usual down payments and lead times for things like phones, power etc? Anyway..we appreciate yours and everyones time and comments. yours kindly Frank Okay, here goes.....First of all, despite my negative or rather, realistic comments about Barcelona, it is still a wonderful city and up there with the greatest cities in the world in my opinion. I fell in love with it because of my family history here, but geniunely believe it has a lot to offer to the right kind of person. As with any place, it´s not right for everyone. I am in my early forties (so not a spring chicken!) but am very youthful nonetheless! My partner and I have no children and as I said before, we are true urbanites with a need for culture and plenty of variety in our lives. In this respect, Barcelona is a good place for the kind of people we are. The downside is that due to it´s beach location and much commented on "laid back" lifestyle, it attracts a large amount of hippy, "beach bum" types and lay about druggies. I have been visiting for over 40 years and I would say that the greatest changes have happened in the last 5-10 years. The biggest problem, I think, is the massive wave of immigration that has turned many areas into ghettos. It´s true that as a Londoner I have lived in areas that were very mixed, but somehow it seems much worse here because Barcelona is so densely populated. Due to high unemployment, it feels like everyone in Spain is living here! However, it is also true to say, that there are very few major cities that are not experiencing these serious problems. The other great thing about this city is that despite the crowds, it is very easy to escape into the surrounding mountains or seaside with little effort as the transport is excellent, cheap and user friendly. The Catalan region is possibly one of the most beautiful in Spain. Where live, El Raval, there is the largest amount of immigrants in the city, however it is super central and an area considered very up and coming and trendy. Because it was neglected for so long there was a glut of run down properties in need of restoration. The local government is also ploughing funds into it to bring it up to date and we are seeing many positive changes. My flat has doubled in two years and we are hoping it will continue to go up. I know some areas in Spain may be experiencing a slow down but Barcelona is very different from the costas. First of all it is a major city and people will always need to live here for work. It´s geographical location make it difficult to sprawl out into the green belt and therefore space is more restricted creating the supply and demand effect. The population is growing and accomodation is not only needed for the local population, but there is also a fast growing foreign population who want to have second homes here due to Barcelona´s fashionable european city status. With regards to rent, there is a wide range of prices depending on area and size. In the city centre it´s possible to get something of around 100sqm for about 1000 euros per month, possibly much cheaper depending on the state of the building and location. However, this is a very noisy city and if you´re looking for peace and quiet it will be harder to find. As a rule, the higher up you go towards the mountain the quieter and more expensive the property is. Having said that, there are also some nice properties in the Olympic village area, just 5 minutes from the sea which are surprisingly quiet and modern. Utitilities are mostly cheaper than the UK. My bills for water, electricity and gas come to around 50 euros a month. Telephone is more expensive as line rental is high, my average bill is around 50 euros per month. Many areas now offer ADSL and prices have come down as it gets more popular, there is more competition in the market and I think it will improve greatly in the coming months. Prositution and crime are power for the course in any major city. It is true that Barcelona still has it´s seedy areas and with the rise in immigrants, prositution has grown. Petty crime is very high, especially in the tourist areas, but it´s no worse than London at the moment. However, recently there has been an increase in the presence of the local police on the streets and I really think they are making huge efforts to improve the growing crime levels. I would say that I feel safer here walking around late at night than I would back in London. Financially, as I said in my first post, this city is great if you have a good income. My salary is not enough to survive and although we own our property outright, we are still struggling. Whilst it is nice to have the beach so close and sit on cafe terraces drinking good coffee, this is not enough to sustain us.I think that a reasonable income for two people is 2000 euros a month, however most people earn half that. Barcelona could be your dream city if you have the money to enjoy all it has to offer. I would suggest you come over for a few months and perhaps rent a place as a short let. At least then you will get an idea of the place and where you want to live. The location you choose in the city is fundamental to how you will feel about living here, if you get that right, you will have a better chance of making things work for you. Good luck! |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by ScotinSpain
Hi Frank,
Should have noted you were thinking of Barcelona in an earlier post :o . Can't speak for that area specifically as I'm down on the Costa del Sol, others from up north may help with Barcelona prices. Small, 1 bedroom apartments rent for anything from 350€ a month, larger, 3 or 4 bedroom ones from 600€ a month. That's on the Costa, property up campo (in the country) is significantly cheaper, but you will not find much work, you'll need good technical Spanish, and you may have trouble with utilities like telephones, Internet access etc. etc. This I guess is why you are looking at Barcelona. Regards property prices, there have been a number of articles in the UK Sunday papers recently on this subject which identify two basic problems: 1. There is a HUGH off-plan glut about to hit the market i.e. tens of thousands. This is where speculators buy prior to the start of building (hence off-plan), pay a deposit plus the first stage payment and then hope to sell just before the final stage payment and 7% tax. In the past this was an easy way to make significant sums with relatively low risk. However selling at the third payment is becoming increasingly difficult, indeed impossible in some areas, with so many built when the bubble was at a high and all coming on the market together. Many speculators are finding they are saddled with a property (more than one in many cases) they do not want, can not offload, are are stuck with it/them. Additionally the Government is looking for 35% CGT on the 'profit', this was ignored in the past. 2. Add to this the DRAMATIC drop in renting potential recently and it puts a very different complection on 'investing' out here. Reports say the renting market dropped between 30 -50% this summer. Again there are a number of reasons: gready rental managers, estate agencies and property managers, the high and rising cost of tourist attractions out here, the poor state of the golf courses and extortionate green fees compared with say Turkey, Cyprus and USA. More and more Brits and Irish know someone with property in Spain and do a private deal hence no agents fees, tax or commercial mark-ups. It is very much a buyers market with the asking price just a starter and room for significant negotiation. The favourite way to buy is direct from the seller, thus avoiding much larger agents fees than in UK; however the Spanish agents do offer much better deals. However you MUST always consult a lawyer...... I don't think property prices are DROPPING dramitically, but the happy days of 20%+ annual increase are long gone, rental returns have plumetted, and the Spanish tax man is becoming more interested. All the above leads to more and more owners looking for longer term rentals and thus lower rents, good news for you :) . Hope this helps put the property market into some perspective. Spanish property has always gone in cycles but, with the expanding EU, more cheap flights to more countries, the simplicity of dealing in Euros, etc. the 'easy money' from property speculation here is gone forever. As they say in the adverts 'The relative price of your property may fall as well as rise, and past performance is no guarantee of future potential!' Good luck with the rental hunting. I moved here a little over 2 years ago, and have not regretted a single minute. Jock Hi Jock, Many many thanks again for the extreamly helpful information. We originally wanted to live in on Costa del Sol area, but were very worried about all of the issues you had written about. It was our thinking that we could use Barcelona as a stepping stone to the Costa del Sol area. However, as you are already there, perhaps we can get enough good information to skip that step. I take it that it is now an excellent time to do a rental? If so given we are still so far away, how would you suggest we locate a property? I have read several articles about questionable business practises, and would like to avoid that route. Secondly, in your area...how difficult is it to get high speed internet connections, and how long would that take and what would the cost be? If you know, what is the time line, costs, and proceedure for phones, and other utlities. I must say I love your little quote about the snow and rain...we've waited too far ourselves! LOL! yours kindly Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by thatmtnman
Hi Jock,
We originally wanted to live in on Costa del Sol area, but were very worried about all of the issues you had written about. It was our thinking that we could use Barcelona as a stepping stone to the Costa del Sol area. However, as you are already there, perhaps we can get enough good information to skip that step. I take it that it is now an excellent time to do a rental? If so given we are still so far away, how would you suggest we locate a property? I have read several articles about questionable business practises, and would like to avoid that route. Secondly, in your area...how difficult is it to get high speed internet connections, and how long would that take and what would the cost be? If you know, what is the time line, costs, and proceedure for phones, and other utlities. Frank Most of the people that I know who rent longer term have found places privately and then arranged a contract direct with the owner. I know this is very difficult from afar but, perhaps, you could arrange a short (1 month?) rental, obviously at a higher cost, then walk the streets, talk to people to seek a longer term one out. There are many web sites here but most are commercial and run by the agents with higher rental prices and, frequently, poor service once they have your cash. I run a 'non-commercial' site for our little Community, but can only find two others down here. Try searching Albayalde, Selwo Hills and Manilvalife to see these, they sometimes help although, again, they are mainly looking for short term clients and are in the more expensive areas. Once you are here there are plenty of houses advertising in the window and it's just a question of phoning around or knocking on doors. Most want 1 months deposit and a month's rent in advance, although agents frequently take an additional month as their fees. Again consult a lawyer BEFORE signing, it's money well spent. Now is a good time for longer rentals; both the Brit and locals are still reeling from the drop off in tourism this summer and we are in the lull between summer and Easter at present. Most of the dodgy business practices are with the larger Brit Agencies and, as always, the press only report the sharks. Many hundreds of thousands of Brits have moved to the Costa del Sol, and are still coming; it's not the most popular centre by chance and the Police are containing much of the crime you read of in other areas. As regards broadband down here, it's not a problem on the Costa, but inland is a bit 'hit and miss', usually miss! Once you know the area Telefonica (BT equivalent) will let you know the score, you can even type in a phone number and it will give you an instant answer. Telefonica have recently improved their, previously terrible (a la BT) service, and can normally provide a telephone in a few days provided there is already a line in. For broadband (ADSL) it takes a couple of weeks for them to send the 'Kit ADSL', including a router, and then you set it up. There are many IT 'experts' who will help for a small charge if your Spanish is not up to it. We are setting up WiFi access in our Community, mainly for the non resident owners who only spend a few weeks, or months, down here each year, which makes it much cheaper with instant access once they have the wirless card. Cost for the telephone line is 16.52 Euros/month and 24/7 ADSL is 39 Euros, both plus 16% IVA (VAT). Telefonica have recently doubled download speed to 512 at no extra charge so it really screams along. Other ISPs are available, some a little cheaper, but Telefonica provide the lines so most businesses use them and I have not had a problem with them in 2 years; they are training more English speaking staff slowly. In general Internet awareness here is well ahead of UK, and the Costa infrastructure modern and efficient (however install a USP if you rely on the Internet for business as the electricity supply is not so good, with many short term outages). Hope this helps, moving here is a big step but 95%+ never look back. Jock |
Re: Do we take the plunge
Originally Posted by ScotinSpain
Hi Frank,
Most of the people that I know who rent longer term have found places privately and then arranged a contract direct with the owner. I know this is very difficult from afar but, perhaps, you could arrange a short (1 month?) rental, obviously at a higher cost, then walk the streets, talk to people to seek a longer term one out. There are many web sites here but most are commercial and run by the agents with higher rental prices and, frequently, poor service once they have your cash. I run a 'non-commercial' site for our little Community, but can only find two others down here. Try searching Albayalde, Selwo Hills and Manilvalife to see these, they sometimes help although, again, they are mainly looking for short term clients and are in the more expensive areas. Once you are here there are plenty of houses advertising in the window and it's just a question of phoning around or knocking on doors. Most want 1 months deposit and a month's rent in advance, although agents frequently take an additional month as their fees. Again consult a lawyer BEFORE signing, it's money well spent. Now is a good time for longer rentals; both the Brit and locals are still reeling from the drop off in tourism this summer and we are in the lull between summer and Easter at present. Most of the dodgy business practices are with the larger Brit Agencies and, as always, the press only report the sharks. Many hundreds of thousands of Brits have moved to the Costa del Sol, and are still coming; it's not the most popular centre by chance and the Police are containing much of the crime you read of in other areas. As regards broadband down here, it's not a problem on the Costa, but inland is a bit 'hit and miss', usually miss! Once you know the area Telefonica (BT equivalent) will let you know the score, you can even type in a phone number and it will give you an instant answer. Telefonica have recently improved their, previously terrible (a la BT) service, and can normally provide a telephone in a few days provided there is already a line in. For broadband (ADSL) it takes a couple of weeks for them to send the 'Kit ADSL', including a router, and then you set it up. There are many IT 'experts' who will help for a small charge if your Spanish is not up to it. We are setting up WiFi access in our Community, mainly for the non resident owners who only spend a few weeks, or months, down here each year, which makes it much cheaper with instant access once they have the wirless card. Cost for the telephone line is 16.52 Euros/month and 24/7 ADSL is 39 Euros, both plus 16% IVA (VAT). Telefonica have recently doubled download speed to 512 at no extra charge so it really screams along. Other ISPs are available, some a little cheaper, but Telefonica provide the lines so most businesses use them and I have not had a problem with them in 2 years; they are training more English speaking staff slowly. In general Internet awareness here is well ahead of UK, and the Costa infrastructure modern and efficient (however install a USP if you rely on the Internet for business as the electricity supply is not so good, with many short term outages). Hope this helps, moving here is a big step but 95%+ never look back. Jock Thank you so much Jock! You are 'just the best'! I will go look at the links you sent. You're setting up a wifi node? Wow! What a great thing to do. I was just down in SFO and someone there has set up a free WiFi node which is just great. yours kindly Frank |
Re: Do we take the plunge
If you have been thinking about the Costa de Sol, consider my area on the Atlantic coast near Cadiz. Still very Spanish and much cheaper to live, also very beautiful.
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