Fred James

So, you either accept tax residency by staying for over 6 months, or you leave for more than 6 months and lose your residency.

Seems simple to me.

Chipmonk

I am aware of people saying that they have TIE, generate their incomes in UK and pay tax there. I have read on forums about someone claiming they have spoken to HMRC and Hacienda and both told him that tax should be paid in UK- however I simply dont believe this is true ( or rather it all comes down to how much you hide). First- if you let HMRC think you live permanently in UK of course they will say you are taxed there- if you use a UK address and UK bank and say your wife and family live there, you are trying to say that is your primary residence. Similarly if you just begin by telling hacienda you spend less than 183 day in Spain and your family live in UK - they think that is your main residence. If you are honest you say have registered for a TIE Spain will immediately require you to make Spanish declarations.
You cant use a TIE as a way of getting around the 90 day rule- which some believe is what they are doing. Once you have registered you are effectively a full tax resident in Spain not UK and you cant escape that by claiming you dont intend to live in Spain for more than 183 days

snikpoh

I don't understand this comment - I too have 'savings' in bonds but don't have any problem with the 720 declaration. I did it once and that was it. As it is a bond, even if I change the underlying shares, there is no need to do a new 720. Also, they aren't increasing so fast that I need to do another 720 either.

Can you please explain why, for you, it's such a pain

bolton wanderer

That's exactly how I see it.

I can understand what the O/P is trying/hoping to do but you cannot retain your residency if you leave Spain for longer than 6 months (applies to WA and NLV). If you wish to avoid problems in about 4/5 years, when the hacienda get around to querying your tax status, you might be better signing off the padron and start collecting proof that you spend less than a total of 6 months in Spain (passport stamps, bank account usage etc). This means that you may have problems renewing your TIE card as, I suspect, that you will have to sign a declaration that you've complied with the rules during your temporary residency on renewal, one of which is fiscal residency.

On the upside, it looks like Spain is looking at the possibilities of extending non resident stays, so this may be what you're looking for in the longer term.
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...r-uk-citizens/

bobd22

My comment was to do with 720 and people with UK properties savings etc. Dealing in shares I don't do however I would guess with dealing in shares rather than investing in savings bonds that are stock market related. If you deal in shares direct then you buy and sell stock, once declared whenever you sell that would need declaring I guess. Not something I do. I can see though that would be a pain and need regular 720 declaration. For most people though it's a 720 declaration and only re submitted if investment increases by 20,000 euros , account closed or property sold etc.

bolton wanderer

From the dates given you must have applied for your card in 2020 (5 years temp card) so I assume that it's under the WA. When did you leave Spain?
It's possible that you've already revoked your residency by staying out of the country for longer than 6 months. If not then you need to register for tax in Spain for this year. Are you still on the padron?

agree_to_disagree

Sure, I have a large portfolio of shares. I buy them and sell them and from time to time companies split into two to form two entities. In one case this year one company got rid of a portion of the company that hadn't good green credential. Maybe it was like a 10 to 1 split. Any change like this triggers the need to do a 720. Plus the portfolio value swings all over the place.

I do not hold bonds so have no understanding of what the reporting requirements are in terms of a 720.

As long as you have sought professional advise about your obligations are in terms of reporting and not being guided by hearsay on forums or what some geezer tells you down the boozer, you should be fine.

bobd22

I don't think the WA makes any difference to the time limits of temporary or permanent residency? I had green card residency for 2 1/2 years and intended staying with green card until 5 year point before exchanging to TIE so I would then get permanent. However after the confusion last January over green cards not being accepted etc I exchanged to TIE. The TIE I got is marked as under WA but is 5 year Temp residency from date of issue of that card. So I can only leave Spain for 6 months before losing residency rights and WA protection

bobd22

Totally agree. However the OP is also trying to use the TIE as a way of beating the Schengen 90 day in 180 rule. So apart from the tax residency implication there is also 90 day rule to consider. The Consulate recently posted re bogus information being submitted to obtain TIE surely saying you intend being permanent resident when you don't falls into this category ? I can see this ploy opening a real can of worms so to speak. The link posted by Bolton Wanderer is interesting. It would be good for British holiday home owners in Spain for sure and I can see why the Mayors of many Spanish regions would go for that. My question is if that is granted to Spain what do Italian, Greek ,Cypriot etc authorities then do ? I can't see them allowing Spain to apply one set of Schengen rules apply while they lose holiday home trade? If the EU make the UK a special case then sure that drives a coach and horses through Schengen regulations. I'm sure brexiteers would see and quote that as a brexit bonus that "they" achieved.

agree_to_disagree

'Brexit bonus' is an oxymoron!

bolton wanderer

Spain is allowed to introduce an independent national visa within the EU rules. However, the visa would only be for use in Spain. I think that France has a similar visa and there are also "Golden Visas" available in a number of EU countries, within the Schengen area, that don't seem to break any Schengen rules.

Fred James

I don't see how the UK Ambassador can change the Schengen rules just because some relatively unimportand provincial civil servant wants them to! There are 26 signatory countries to the agreeemnt and they would all have to agree to the changes.

agree_to_disagree

I think what this thread really highlights is how much Brexit has made life much more difficult for expats already in Spain or those planning to move here.
The bit that wrecks my head is that there are expats living in Spain who actually voted for Brexit!

Talk about turkeys voting for XMAS...

offthepiste

You can be dual tax resident, i.e. in UK and Spain, at the same time.

It is quite hard not to be a UK tax resident as this is not just down to a number of days spent in the UK. The UK tax residency is based upon a "number of ties", e.g. you have a home in the UK you "can use", how many days were you in the UK in prior tax tear etc. etc.

Whilst, for Spain its either you have spent 183 days and or that you have a place that is your primary residency.

So you may be liable for tax in both jurisdictions. However, the Double Tax Treaty means you do not pay tax twice.

Therefore, if you are liable for the same type of tax in both countries, e.g. income tax, then both countries tax authorities will ultimately agree how things balance up so you in the end do not pay twice, you will get some money back (days .. weeks , yeas ..eons later).

However, different countries tax different things. So if you have investments say in a UK ISA then probably Spain will not view these as tax free as its not their wrapper and as the UK does not tax you for any ISA dividends or capital gains, then Spain will.

I hate to say it, but these tax difficulties have nothing to do with the little englander brexit and were around pre bozo day.... so should not come as a surprise.

Fred James

You can "qualify" for tax residency in both UK and Spain as in the UK the trigger point is 90 days (or less). However the tax treaty rules do say which one you are actually tax resident in primarily. The importance of that is that the country you are deemed resident in gets the first bite of the tax cherry. This can be important when you get taxed in both on the same asset/income such as CGT on a house in Spain or UK. If you are primarily tax resident in Spain and you make a gain in the UK, Spain will tax you first and any UK tax will be offset, however the order in which you are taxed can affect the net tax paid.

One point that is often forgotten is that any income arising in the UK is taxed in the UK irrespective of tax residency. Examples are rental income and in theory UK pensions, however there are special rules in the treaty to exempt pensions from UK tax.