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Culture or Cruelty?

Culture or Cruelty?

Old Aug 7th 2015, 5:36 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Bri and Katee
I have to agree with Fred here. The list you give Porth sounds very much like animal rights hype.

There is no need to do any of that in a bullfight. A fight starts with the bull in the ring not facing a matador but a picador. It is his job to 'prepare' the bull for the matador.

The picador is on horseback and uses a lance to sever the muscles that control the bulls neck and fore legs, so that it slows the bull and it cannot turn easily - this gives the matador when he enters a much easier time of avoiding injury.

Barbaric yes, and eventually it will stop as Fred says, many younger spaniards have no interest, so it will die out.

However you are returning to the UK where the present tory government has just given the go ahead for a new breeding kennel in east yorkshire to breed beagles for experimentation. They are also trying to overturn the fox hunting ban and allow foxes to be torn apart by dogs.

In your indignation over animal cruelty here, don't forget its just as bad in the UK - if you look for it!
are you for real in weakening the bulls neck muscles so it is easier for the matador. You need with respect some counselling.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 5:47 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Hi I have read once more Bri and Katee's response. So let me get this right.

The guys on horseback weaken with a pic the neck muscles of the bull so to make it easier for the matador not to get injured.

In the UK you could be sanctioned for such a statement. It is madness.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 5:48 pm
  #18  
 
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Porth
Sorry Fred mano a mano means one against another. Read please Hemmingway. You are wrong Fred.

Fred your arguments are without weight structure or belief.
Hemingway mainly wrote fiction, not factual books about bullfighting, of which there are many, most of which I have read.

I have not expressed any arguments or opinions about the rights or wrongs of bullfighting, one way or another.

Please do not presume to assume my views. If you wish to discuss a subject then at least do some research as I have done since I came to Spain.

According to Wiki, mano a mano is, as I said. If you think they are wrong, take it up with them, not me. https://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Mano_a_mano

It is a subject that concerns many expats who live in Spain and should be discussed, but as a moderator, I am not going to take sides apart from confirming that I am against animal cruelty generally and also making sure that people quote the facts, not hysterical comments from various biased sources.

The question of whether it should be allowed to continue is not just a case of animal cruelty, but all sorts of deep rooted cultural aspects which to us may be in conflict with what we have been brought up to accept. Sadly, we don't have too many Spaniards to give their side of the argument, although I suspect that the decline in support, particularly from the younger Spaniards, is more a case of apathy rather than disgust.

One thing I am sure of, is that complaints from foreigners who usually know nothing about the facts and culture sadly will have very little effect on the situation.

Last edited by Fred James; Aug 8th 2015 at 8:58 am.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 6:15 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Just for the record, that bull was obviously shot with a rifle.

Had a shotgun been used at that range it may not have had too much effect on the bull, but it could well have downed a few spectators.

I think a more appropriate topic title would have been Culture AND Cruelty as it is obviously a certain amount of each rather than one or the other.

Last edited by Dick Dasterdly; Aug 7th 2015 at 6:20 pm. Reason: Add on
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 6:15 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Excellent, balanced post, Fred.

I too despise animal cruelty, and don't support bullfights (never been), but culture runs deep, and simply objecting to it without offering some understanding of the culture which embraces it will get you nowhere with them.

I also don't smoke and don't like being subjected to it all the time, but I also don't engage in sanctimonious lecturing of those who do.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 11:07 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Porth
Fred as a young man just out of University I spent a summer both in Madrid and Barcelona and for a few weeks at the Plaza Monumental in Barcelona and when El Cordebes (spelling) was fighting at Easter.

Fred you cannot justify anything that goes on and the thought of the brave Matadors being awarded either one or two ears or the tail or perhaps the hooves disgusts me.

I was young it was on first pass exciting afterwards the realities sunk in.

No more I am afraid.

Fred vote with your undercarriage perhaps and leave?

So you live in a society that practices animal cruelty and remain passive?
I find it strange that at one point you were part of the whole thing and yet now you are shouting about it from the rooftops. Surely that could be true of many people. However, the vast majority of Spanish people deplore the actions of the minority. You were once part of this so maybe you should remember and accept that you are in part responsible for the fever.

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Old Aug 8th 2015, 5:34 am
  #22  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Porth
Hi I have read once more Bri and Katee's response. So let me get this right.

The guys on horseback weaken with a pic the neck muscles of the bull so to make it easier for the matador not to get injured.

In the UK you could be sanctioned for such a statement. It is madness.
Why would someone be 'sanctioned' for that?

You're not making sense.
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Old Aug 8th 2015, 8:12 am
  #23  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Porth you began life on this forum as someone wanting advice and in return you offered good contributions.

With this and one or two other of your posts lately you have turned into nothing but an internet troll trying to stir up trouble.

You denigrate me and my posts for actually telling the truth of how bullfighting really works. You don't have to believe anything I say. Just as you advised others here, check the internet on bullfighting, you will find everything I say is the truth.

As to you returning to France, maybe you are honing your argumentative skills for a return to the legal profession which you have mentioned you were a part of in the past. Certainly turning on every member that has offered you help since you arrived here is not the behaviour expected or wanted. These are the last words from me...

The sooner you are gone the better, France is welcome to you.
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Old Aug 9th 2015, 3:34 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Bull fighting was made illegal here in 1991.
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Old Aug 9th 2015, 4:15 pm
  #25  
 
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

So? It's been stopped in a number of cities, often for purely political rather than for animal rights reasons, such as in Catalonia.

Last edited by Fred James; Aug 9th 2015 at 4:21 pm.
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Old Aug 16th 2015, 4:06 pm
  #26  
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Default Daily Telegraph

I have promised to keep away from this issue but simply wish to act as a conduit in the distribution.

For balance newspapers have to sell print and the Telegraph is amongst the leaders.

But perhaps there are those on this site amongst whom suggest that the pics going into the neck of bulls makes it easier for the Matadors. I just simply could not understand that argument but then what do I know I am just an animal lover. And yes animal cruelty exist throughout the world including the UK and France. But of course in China they boil and skin dogs to eat.

In my original posting I used the word 'sanctioned' but of course the word I was looking for was 'sectioned' for anyone who applauds and supports the Pics having a go to make it easy for the Matadors should indeed be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Let us make this easy The bull comes from the countryside and meets the Matador face to face and without being adjusted.



You must make up your own minds my views are simply mine.

The starving dogs that give Spain a bad name - Telegraph
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Old Aug 16th 2015, 11:25 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Porth, you do seem to be very disturbed by what you perceive to be happening in Spain in relation to the issue of animal cruelty. You also seem to be very quick to take offence with others member’s comments when they do not match your expectations. Your use of language appears to have reduced in quality whilst your irritability has increased.

You have had a difficult period of time and faced many setbacks in your move to Spain and being, as you say a lawyer, you have been quick to try and use law to remedy some of those situations. I just feel that the animal cruelty issue is a distraction for you in a time of existential crisis. I get the feeling that you are entirely peed off with it all and are lashing out in all directions as a result.
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Old Aug 17th 2015, 6:33 am
  #28  
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Default Re: Daily Telegraph

Originally Posted by Porth
I have promised to keep away from this issue but simply wish to act as a conduit in the distribution.

For balance newspapers have to sell print and the Telegraph is amongst the leaders.

But perhaps there are those on this site amongst whom suggest that the pics going into the neck of bulls makes it easier for the Matadors. I just simply could not understand that argument but then what do I know I am just an animal lover. And yes animal cruelty exist throughout the world including the UK and France. But of course in China they boil and skin dogs to eat.

In my original posting I used the word 'sanctioned' but of course the word I was looking for was 'sectioned' for anyone who applauds and supports the Pics having a go to make it easy for the Matadors should indeed be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Let us make this easy The bull comes from the countryside and meets the Matador face to face and without being adjusted.



You must make up your own minds my views are simply mine.

The starving dogs that give Spain a bad name - Telegraph
You should now point out where anyone has "applauded or supported the Pics having a go to make it easy for the Matadors". You won't be able to because you made it up.
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Old Aug 17th 2015, 6:48 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: Daily Telegraph

Originally Posted by jimenato
You should now point out where anyone has "applauded or supported the Pics having a go to make it easy for the Matadors". You won't be able to because you made it up.
Read the postings and in some detail! And then apologize
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Old Aug 17th 2015, 6:55 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: Daily Telegraph

Originally Posted by jimenato
You should now point out where anyone has "applauded or supported the Pics having a go to make it easy for the Matadors". You won't be able to because you made it up.
And this




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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?
I have to agree with Fred here. The list you give Porth sounds very much like animal rights hype.

There is no need to do any of that in a bullfight. A fight starts with the bull in the ring not facing a matador but a picador. It is his job to 'prepare' the bull for the matador.

The picador is on horseback and uses a lance to sever the muscles that control the bulls neck and fore legs, so that it slows the bull and it cannot turn easily - this gives the matador when he enters a much easier time of avoiding injury.

Barbaric yes, and eventually it will stop as Fred says, many younger spaniards have no interest, so it will die out.

However you are returning to the UK where the present tory government has just given the go ahead for a new breeding kennel in east yorkshire to breed beagles for experimentation. They are also trying to overturn the fox hunting ban and allow foxes to be torn apart by dogs.

In your indignation over animal cruelty here, don't forget its just as bad in the UK - if you look for it!
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Gives the matador a much easier time. Of course not supportive but damning in whatever civilised society one lives in.
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