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Culture or Cruelty?

Culture or Cruelty?

Old Aug 7th 2015, 3:16 am
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Default Culture or Cruelty?

The Spanish approach to animal welfare? As a starting point podenco's and the like and then Bulls?

This in relation to the last point is not Hemmingways time when the bulls came from the campo and what you had before you was before you. Today they shave the horns and then blacken them but the bulls balance is challenged. Then the guys who get on the horses with pics and the vocal cords are taken away and the stomach of the horse filled with sawdust.

Then yesterday in the South West when a bull got the better of a guy and he died.

Then an outraged cretin my words had a shotgun and in front of vulnerable children killed the bull.

Here and for the good I am not advocating a third world war but a reasoned approach to the question.

Should we walk away or acquiesce?

Please answers such as 'its Spain get on with it' have no weight or balance for cruelty wherever and it exists in the UK cannot be justified.

I can see guys like CM tearing his hair out on this point.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 3:35 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Porth
Today they shave the horns and then blacken them but the bulls balance is challenged. Then the guys who get on the horses with pics and the vocal cords are taken away and the stomach of the horse filled with sawdust.
And what evidence do you have that this happens?

There is far worse animal cruelty in Spain than bullfighting. Hanging hunting dogs from trees when they are no longer required for example - I could go on but I won't.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 3:51 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Continuing to highlight and bring to public attention all forms of animal cruelty in Spain is one way forward, though in fairness there is a slowly improving mindset amongst the Spanish public themselves.

Bull fighting for instance has decreased quite a lot in popularity, especially amongst the younger generation, with only the South West still being a hotbed, mainly amongst the well heeled.

The cruelty relating to Galgos is a National disgrace, I've seen far too much of it myself. Most of the hunters seem to be on a massive ego trip with hardly a single thought regarding the welfare of their dogs.

In contrast to that it's heartening to see some Spanish folk getting involved with N. Europeans in the setting up of rescue centres.

Unfortunately there's a long way to go and it isn't helpful that many local authorities turn their backs on such organisations and even run them out of town on occasions.

Oh,just curious about the shotgun incident Perth.
Do you have a link ?
It's very unusual to dispatch a bull with a shotgun rather than a powerful pistol or rifle as it's unlikely that shotgun pellets would actually penetrate the skull of a bull.
From point blank range with the shotgun against the animals chest might succeed, but the resultant mess would be horrific.

Last edited by Dick Dasterdly; Aug 7th 2015 at 3:56 am. Reason: Add on
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 3:52 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Fred I am involved with Podenco's here in Javea and the fact that in Valencia and in a shipping container at 40 degrees the hunters keep their dogs there. We have both our lawyers and indeed an animal welfare group involved. We have just rescued a mum and seven puppies.

Our trophy Mayor who likes his photograph on happier times refuses to admit to animal cruelty.

Fred I will not inundate you with history but please start with Hemmingway.

This country on solely animal welfare grounds disgusts me. So much so we are going to leave within a month.

For balance animal cruelty exists throughout the world.

But I am not interested in the world I am interested as to here in Spain.

Do we as a nation and with our background turn a blind eye to cruelty as in say on the costas and what happens in land is not our business?
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 3:53 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
Continuing to highlight and bring to public attention all forms of animal cruelty in Spain is one way forward, though in fairness there is a slowly improving mindset amongst the Spanish public themselves.

Bull fighting for instance has decreased quite a lot in popularity, especially amongst the younger generation, with only the South West still being a hotbed, mainly amongst the well heeled.

The cruelty relating to Galgos is a National disgrace, I've seen far too much of it myself. Most of the hunters seem to be on a massive ego trip with hardly a single thought regarding the welfare of their dogs.

In contrast to that it's heartening to see some Spanish folk getting involved with N. Europeans in the setting up of rescue centres.

Unfortunately there's a long way to go and it isn't helpful that many local authorities turn their backs on such organisations and even run them out of town on occasions.

Oh,just curious about the shotgun incident Perth.
Do you have a link ?
It's very unusual to dispatch a bull with a shotgun rather than a powerful pistol or rifle as it's unlikely that shotgun pellets would actually penetrate the skull of a bull.
I will ask my wife to send me the link and I will post it here.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:06 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Fred James
And what evidence do you have that this happens?

There is far worse animal cruelty in Spain than bullfighting. Hanging hunting dogs from trees when they are no longer required for example - I could go on but I won't.
Fred is this enough and then read the national newspapers of yesterday.

What happens in a bullfight
A revealing description of the behind-the-scenes atrocities of a bullfight.

Bullfights: The facts

Under the excuse that bullfights are "art" and a "tradition", bullfights thrive on tourists to maintain it, when in reality it just comes down to a so-call "artist" - clown alike with tights and shiny sequels with a sword and a red cape -, "fighting" a helpless abused animal who doesn't even have a theoretical chance of winning ...

The people behind this very violent and cruel spectacle pretend to maintain this horrific business to satisfy a sadistic minority for money.

If this is a no-win situation for the bull, then it is not "fighting", but plain and simple torture, not Tradition, nor Culture. Bullfights are actually held in Mexico, Peru, Ecuador, Spain, Portugal and France. Mexico has the biggest bullring in the world, with capacity for over 60,000 people!

What goes on behind the bullfights

Most people are unaware of the facts behind the bullfights, all the torture that the bulls are exposed to "prepare" them for the "valiant matador". To start with, the bullfight bull is not a natural breed, but a crossbreed created especially for this purpose. The bulls are herbivorous, myopic and are released in the bullring only after:

The animal is kept for a couple of days in a dark room, without water nor food to weaken it
The animal is hit with a sack of wet sand on his ribs and kidneys. This method is known among the bullfighters as "bajar al toro'' (weaken the bull)
Vaseline is added into his eyes to cloud the vision
Cotton is stuck in the bulls nose holes and throat to make it difficult to breathe
Quite often, the tip of the bull horns get shaved off, so they would not represent a big threat to the "brave" matador
Laxatives are given to the bulls to make them weaker
If the bull is too weak after all these "treatments", then thinner (turpentine), is dropped on his hooves and genitals, so when the bull appears on the ring kicking and jumping, it is not because he is "furious" and "brave", but because he feels that his hooves and genitals are burning with pain
Often these people stab the bull testicles with knitting needles, to make them look "wilder and aggressive"
To complete their evilness, often has been reported that the wooden door that slides in an upward motion to release the tortured bull into the ring, is released to make it fall onto the bull's head, fissuring their skull just before going into the arena.
Let's not forget about the horses

Fred just give in acceptance of this barbaric act gives us the person.

Spain in relation to animal welfare is a barbaric nation.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:11 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

In Hemmingway's day the 30's or so it was mano a mano.

Bring that on and let an unfettered bull face his opponent in the ring. That is what we suggest we would do in a civilised society.

May the better man win.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:25 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

This is none too pleasant either.


Help Stop the Sadistic 'Fire Bull' Festival in Soria | Take Action | PETA.org.uk - 1
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:26 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Porth
In Hemmingway's day the 30's or so it was mano a mano.
In bullfighting terms, mano a mano merely means that two men fight 6 bulls rather than 3 men.

You frequently get this now, it is not just a historical way of organising a bullfight.

By all means, show your displeasure of cruel sports, but please get your facts right. The stuff you quoted does not have a source, but I suspect it comes mainly from animal rights activists.

The people of Spain are slowly rejecting the bullfight, but it will take time. It may get legislated against on a regional basis, such as Calalunia, but I can't see it happening in Andalucia for many years unless central government makes it an issue.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:32 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Fred James
In bullfighting terms, mano a mano merely means that two men fight 6 bulls rather than 3 men.

You frequently get this now, it is not just a historical way of organising a bullfight.

By all means, show your displeasure of cruel sports, but please get your facts right. The stuff you quoted does not have a source, but I suspect it comes mainly from animal rights activists.

The people of Spain are slowly rejecting the bullfight, but it will take time. It may get legislated against on a regional basis, such as Calalunia, but I can't see it happening in Andalucia for many years unless central government makes it an issue.
Then Fred stand up and be counted. We are going a personal view point. Those who stay have their own viewpoint. With respect Fred you know nothing of my background or experience or my beliefs.

I am disappointed with you Fred.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:40 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Fred as a young man just out of University I spent a summer both in Madrid and Barcelona and for a few weeks at the Plaza Monumental in Barcelona and when El Cordebes (spelling) was fighting at Easter.

Fred you cannot justify anything that goes on and the thought of the brave Matadors being awarded either one or two ears or the tail or perhaps the hooves disgusts me.

I was young it was on first pass exciting afterwards the realities sunk in.

No more I am afraid.

Fred vote with your undercarriage perhaps and leave?

So you live in a society that practices animal cruelty and remain passive?
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:44 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Fred James
In bullfighting terms, mano a mano merely means that two men fight 6 bulls rather than 3 men.

You frequently get this now, it is not just a historical way of organising a bullfight.

By all means, show your displeasure of cruel sports, but please get your facts right. The stuff you quoted does not have a source, but I suspect it comes mainly from animal rights activists.

The people of Spain are slowly rejecting the bullfight, but it will take time. It may get legislated against on a regional basis, such as Calalunia, but I can't see it happening in Andalucia for many years unless central government makes it an issue.
Sorry Fred mano a mano means one against another. Read please Hemmingway. You are wrong Fred.

Fred your arguments are without weight structure or belief.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 4:51 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

I have to agree with Fred here. The list you give Porth sounds very much like animal rights hype.

There is no need to do any of that in a bullfight. A fight starts with the bull in the ring not facing a matador but a picador. It is his job to 'prepare' the bull for the matador.

The picador is on horseback and uses a lance to sever the muscles that control the bulls neck and fore legs, so that it slows the bull and it cannot turn easily - this gives the matador when he enters a much easier time of avoiding injury.

Barbaric yes, and eventually it will stop as Fred says, many younger spaniards have no interest, so it will die out.

However you are returning to the UK where the present tory government has just given the go ahead for a new breeding kennel in east yorkshire to breed beagles for experimentation. They are also trying to overturn the fox hunting ban and allow foxes to be torn apart by dogs.

In your indignation over animal cruelty here, don't forget its just as bad in the UK - if you look for it!
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 5:12 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Originally Posted by Bri and Katee
I have to agree with Fred here. The list you give Porth sounds very much like animal rights hype.

There is no need to do any of that in a bullfight. A fight starts with the bull in the ring not facing a matador but a picador. It is his job to 'prepare' the bull for the matador.

The picador is on horseback and uses a lance to sever the muscles that control the bulls neck and fore legs, so that it slows the bull and it cannot turn easily - this gives the matador when he enters a much easier time of avoiding injury.

Barbaric yes, and eventually it will stop as Fred says, many younger spaniards have no interest, so it will die out.

However you are returning to the UK where the present tory government has just given the go ahead for a new breeding kennel in east yorkshire to breed beagles for experimentation. They are also trying to overturn the fox hunting ban and allow foxes to be torn apart by dogs.

In your indignation over animal cruelty here, don't forget its just as bad in the UK - if you look for it!
You have overlooked something I have admitted that cruelty exists world wide but at least here we have the opportunity of doing something about it.

Again you make a judgment (spelt the legal way) of returning to the UK. What is the basis of that call? You are wrong - it is France and to our homes there. It equally exists there but not to an extent of Spain. Of course bull fighting in the South

Then how about this

GRAPHIC VIDEO: Shocking moment bull is shot dead after goring Spanish man in Caceres festival | Spain's Latest News

Sleep well in your bed. See Podenco's here in Javea and dumped in waste bins as well as in Denia.
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Old Aug 7th 2015, 5:20 am
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Default Re: Culture or Cruelty?

Here Fred abdicate and walk away. Can you think of anything so barbaric?

Fred had one time considerable respect for you but perhaps you have lived too long in the hinterland and it is now part of your culture?
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