Chickpea

Hello everyone,

I completed an English Literature degree (3 yrs) then did a PGCE. (1 yr) Also I finished my QTS and began working as a secondary school teacher in England.
A few years later, I moved to Spain and began the process of convalidating my studies.

I combined my English Literature degree with my PGCE and applied for the licenciatura en filosofía inglesa (4 year degree). The ministry of education in Madrid wrote back confirming in order to complete my convalidation I would have to do 3 subjects; History of the English language ( I completed it and passed) Literatura Española siglo XX ( Im studying for my exam at the moment and finally Lengua Española ( I haven´t started but I hope to take the exam once Ive finished the other Spanish subject) Hopefully I will have finished my studies at the end of the year.

In order to do my oposciones (civil service exams) I have to do a Masters in Education (CAP) however I was hoping if someone could give me any information; has anyone convalidated their PGCE and QTS for the CAP?
Despite completing everything necessary in order to be a teacher, things are very difficult to get started in a public school. You need a CAP to teach in secondary schools, I find it frustrating even though I have the qualification in England, I have to start all over again and pay 1500-2000 euros to do the Masters.

Has anyone encountered this problem?

I would appreciate any feedback.

Many thanks in advance.

Rosemary

As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

I see that you have started to post in the Spain forum and hopefully you will gain some answers there. As your above post only really pertains to Spain I will move this one over for you to save you from repeating yourself.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary

cricketman

Hi Chickpea

Your problem is so specific that I doubt anyone else has encountered it

Spanish degrees actually are 5 years long rather than the 3 year UK ones, so often you must complete additional modules to get it validated. And the masters is in the Spanish curruculum and teaching methods, which are again different to the UK, so I am not surprised that you need to do that course too.

There is no good news for teachers at the moment I am afraid as 10,000s have been laid off over the past few years, and they are allowing class sizes to grow, but I wish you the best of luck. Hopefully things will look at bit better by the time you are fully trained and you have the big advantage of being bilingual which will help you get a place in the many bilingual public schools

Chickpea

Thank you for your reply.

I would like to say that Spanish degrees have changed to a four year course.
As I mentioned in my original post, I am currently completing the extra modules to gain a Spanish degree. I only have to complete three extra modules;History of English, Spanish Literature and the Spanish language. I have completed 1 out of three and hope to finish the Spanish modules this year.

Thank you anyway.

cricketman

Ah yes you are right. Degree courses are 4 years now thanks to the Plan Bolonia. That makes studying in Spain more attractive

EnglishPatriot

From what I've read British degrees and qualifications are rarely accepted as like for like in Spain and in most cases mean either having to do further modules to get it approved as equivalent, or in some cases you need to retrain entirely.

Aside from the language problem, the unwillingness of Spanish employers to accept foreign qualification is the biggest barrier to a foreigner finding employment in Spain.

agoreira

Two of my Spanish friends are teachers here in UK, and I'm sure they never had the problems the OP and many other foreigners are facing. There are those here that tell us the reason is that the Spanish uni's are better, if you look at the list of best rated uni's around the world, you have to go to position 201 before you find a Spanish one. UK has loads there, three in the top ten alone.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u.../range/201-225

EnglishPatriot

The difference is the UK always follows EU law to the letter, Spain does not.

Technically all EU member states should honour another EU qualification as being acceptable in place of the other member state's equivalent.

The UK always does this. Spain rarely does.

Perhaps it is done on purpose to make it difficult for foreign professionals to take work in Spain and therefore leaving the job market open to their own graduates?

rachelk

I don't know if this would be of any interest to the OP, but I seem to remember that some parts of Spain, (Madrid at least) foreign trained teachers are being accepted without opposiciones into its schools to teach languages. It might be worth looking at at least until the paperwork is sorted.

cricketman

No, I dont think so. You only need co-validation for a professional role e.g. law, medicine or architecture or for a public service role where you must take oposiciones. So they are assuring a level playing field for everyone

You can work for a private company in Spain with UK qualification with no problems. My UK degree was accepted without any trouble

And I dont think anyone has said that Spanish universities are better than UK universities. They are not. However, the degrees tend to be longer and harder. And of course, the fees are much cheaper

me me

The fees may be cheaper, but in the UK if you don´t earn over a certain amount, you don´t have to pay the student loan back, and even then it is not paid back in anyway that would give hardship.

A student loan in the UK should be viewed as an income tax (according to my guru Martin Lewis).

Repayments kick in when a certain level of earnings are reached as with higher rates of tax.

But I think we have had this conversation before.

EnglishPatriot

EU law states that a professional status in one EU country must be honoured in another, much like an EU driving licence must be converted like for like without the need for another driving test.

The fact Spain does not accept the British QTS as being equivalent to their own Qualified Teacher Status is potentially a violation of EU law.

I know a lot of people like to run down the British higher education system, but I'd like to see some hard evidence that Spanish degrees are actually harder than British degrees.

Just because Spanish degrees take longer to complete doesn't mean they're actually more challenging intellectually.

In fact, Spain ranks much lower on the PISA test that the UK does, so if their compulsory education doesn't rank well than I see no evidence that their higher education is particularly good either.

If anything the 5 year degree sounds like a money-making racket to keep the money rolling in from the government as long as possible.

cricketman

My wife did 2 years at one of the top UK universities and 3 years in Spain, and the work was much easier in the UK, she got a 1st for all the subjects and said that a lot of it was what she had learnt in her first year of university in Spain. In Spain she had 35 hours of classes each week, in the UK she had 6 hours per week, so she got a job to fill the time in.

My brother and sisters-in law have 7 year engineering degrees from Spanish universities. They are highly sought after from companies all over the world. A 3 year UK degree cannot even compare and it would be absolutely stupid to covalidate a UK 3 year egineering degree with a 7 year Spanish one. Ditto, how can you covalidate a UK law degree with a Spanish law degree? UK law is about UK law, not Spanish law! The same for education. If you have a PGCE from the UK then you will know nothing about the Spanish curriculum and teaching methods.

As for the UK student loan, correct, it equates to 9% extra income tax for graduates who earn over £21k. This actually sounds like a lot to me. It effectively means that the tax rate in the UK is 60% for those who earn over 40k i.e. 40% tax, 11% national insurance and 9% student loan. Earning over £40k a year is not a lot of money in London for example, you could barely afford to live in a 1-2 bed flat on that.

There is a lot of Spain bashing on this site which is fine because for a lot of things, Spain deserves to be bashed, but many times the criticism is based on ignorance i.e. not fully understanding how or why things work the way they do. I think this is one of the major problems that an expat faces. Spain is not the UK, so the mental models that people build up from growing up and living in the UK do not work in Spain.

me me

You make it sound ever so painful, as usual very negative but this UK gov payback table shows the exact amounts to be paid back at different earning levels.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtables/sl3.pdf



On a wage of 403 pounds a week the weekly payment of the student loan will be 7 pounds a week, or put another way 2 lattes from Starbucks, or a McDonalds burger and Me Flurry.

If you earn 1181 pounds a WEEK you will pay back 77 pound a week.

Which equates to a meal out for 2 in a not exactly luxurious restaurant.
Not forgetting for the person who earns 1181 a week, it is probably because the did go to uni. that they are in that wage bracket.

And considering the number of graduates who are unemployed, you would have to be a real mean spirited moaner to feel hard done by at having to pay 77 quid a week, when it is weighed up against the advantages that were gained through uni.

And isn´t it only fair that those who can earn larger salaries through having gone to uni, should pay for it themselves? And it is not as if the money has to be paid up front is it?

Adding the national ins payment into the equation is misleading (but you know that already) because it has to be paid by every worker and not just ones paying back student loans

EnglishPatriot

If Spanish higher education is so much more rigorous than British higher education why does Spain rank lower on the PISA test than the UK does?

Surely you would think that if Spanish higher education is much more rigorous than British higher education, then Spanish compulsory education would be much more rigorous than British compulsory education?

Furthermore, if Spanish higher education is so much better, then why is it Oxford and Cambridge that are widely considered the gold standard in higher education and not Madrid Complutense and Salamanca?

Why are foreign students practically queuing up for a place in British universities and not Spanish universities?

You are stating your opinion, not EU law. All professional statuses attained in one EU nation MUST be recognised by the other.

The UK, keen to enforce EU law as ever, always accepts QTS status from other EU nations with no problem.

Furthermore, a lawyer admitted to the bar in any other EU state can practice in the UK and any other EU nation.