Civil War

Old Jan 23rd 2010, 3:19 pm
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Default Civil War

I am getting very interested in the Civil War of 1936-9 that preceded Franco's long dictatorship of almost 40 years. Some of the books I am reading suggest that the bitterness that ensued is ongoing. Would anyone care to offer their views about this horrendous occurrence?
Thanks in advance Superskib.

PS my only experience of Spain is holidays in Barcelona and El Campello.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:21 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by superskib
I am getting very interested in the Civil War of 1936-9 that preceded Franco's long dictatorship of almost 40 years. Some of the books I am reading suggest that the bitterness that ensued is ongoing. Would anyone care to offer their views about this horrendous occurrence?
Thanks in advance Superskib.

PS my only experience of Spain is holidays in Barcelona and El Campello.
Hello
What have you read so far? It is a very interesting period in history and not that long ago.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by superskib
I am getting very interested in the Civil War of 1936-9 that preceded Franco's long dictatorship of almost 40 years. Some of the books I am reading suggest that the bitterness that ensued is ongoing. Would anyone care to offer their views about this horrendous occurrence?
Thanks in advance Superskib.

PS my only experience of Spain is holidays in Barcelona and El Campello.
The best stories you're gonna get are straight from the mouths of older Spaniards
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

It is indeed a fascinating chapter in Spain's long history. Have a look at the following website. Loads of interesting information and links:

http://lacucaracha.info/

Everyone has a story they've heard of what went on in their own town or village. Some of the stuff I've heard is horrendous, but a lot of people would just like to forget it or even worse, aren't interested.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 7:58 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by arko
It is indeed a fascinating chapter in Spain's long history. Have a look at the following website. Loads of interesting information and links:

http://lacucaracha.info/

Everyone has a story they've heard of what went on in their own town or village. Some of the stuff I've heard is horrendous, but a lot of people would just like to forget it or even worse, aren't interested.
I think that´s more to the point, particularly the older people. They saw families torn apart, fighting between family members who supported opposite sides and some of the rifts haven´t healed today. Whole villages were eradicated because they didn´t support the fascists. It´s recent history for Spain and, I´m sure, the wounds will take a long time to heal. I feel sure that´s why they support their King, Juan Carlos. He was brought up by Franco and when he became King he decided that democracy was the way to go. I find it a really fascinating topic but I wouldn´t have liked to have lived it.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 8:14 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

When I said that they aren't interested, I meant that unfortunately a lot of youngsters see it as something that has nothing to do with them. However, that happens everywhere in every society.

Interestingly, I read that since the 1980s the Spanish have been much more inclined to read books by foreigners on the subject (there are some good British titles) as they see them as far more neutral, without such a political slant. I asked one of my Spanish friends about this and he said he wouldn't know and he'd never read anything on the war any way.

One of the things that has always puzzled me is how much money has been spent in Spain on trying to bring South American dictators to justice for the same crimes that happened in Spain, but because of the unofficial 'pacto del olvido' (where all political sides agreed to forget what had happened in Spain for the sake of peace and prosperity),Civil War crimes will go unpunished.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 9:19 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by arko

Interestingly, I read that since the 1980s the Spanish have been much more inclined to read books by foreigners on the subject (there are some good British titles) as they see them as far more neutral, without such a political slant. I asked one of my Spanish friends about this and he said he wouldn't know and he'd never read anything on the war any way.
Can you give some examples as I also would be interested in reading more about this.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

I had a deep interest in this topic when I first visited Spain - which was in the days of the old Cuadillo. I remember being held by the Guardia Civil overnight after having dinner with a liberal doctor who expressed opposition (pretty scarey I can assure you).

As far as I could tell each side was a barbaric as the other -although the Nationalists used the africanistas (Spanish military from North Africa) who had a fearsome reputation and probably started the atrocities. I can't say I blame those who want to let sleeping dogs lie.

Some books I found interesting - I still have them somewhere
Hermanos! (Paperback) by William Herrick (Author)
The Spanish Civil War: Reaction, Revolution and Revenge (Paperback) by Paul Preston (Author)
Iberia (Mass Market Paperback) by James Michener (Author)

All are available via Amazon UK -although possibly out of print.
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 9:53 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by Madridboy
Can you give some examples as I also would be interested in reading more about this.
Giles Tremlett 'GHOSTS OF SPAIN' Travels through a country's hidden past. Very informative written recently I think 2006? or 7? I trawled my way through this but think I need to read it again. So much information.

Fiction based on fact is a fantastic read C.J Sansom 'WINTER IN MADRID'

I have read others too. FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS [heavy going]
WHEN I WOKE UP ONE MIDSUMMER MORNING [the book that first got me interested in the civil war in Spain] There are now so many places I want to visit. Even 'The Valley of the Fallen' Its all part of the history.

Last edited by soontoretire; Jan 23rd 2010 at 9:57 pm. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 10:07 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Article today in Diariosur. Interesting comments below

http://www.diariosur.es/20100123/mar...-20100123.html
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Old Jan 23rd 2010, 10:58 pm
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by jackytoo
Article today in Diariosur. Interesting comments below

http://www.diariosur.es/20100123/mar...-20100123.html
Sadly people were still being shot in the 1940's for belonging to the wrong organizations. Just this week I have read an article on 'Freemasons in Spain' in a monthly magazine my husband receives. 'FREEMASONS TODAY'
In 1945 a lodge was formed in Barcelona in honour of Luis Companies who after Francos victory fled to France. He was found by the gestapo sent back to Spain and shot. In 1946 other members were found and arrested and in 1948 were imprisoned for as much as 20 years. Tried by a special tribunal for the Suppression of Communism and Freemasonry.
Some of the older Spanish people I know depict a picture of England sitting on the fence during the Civil War, not prepared to help. Some rather admire Franco for keeping them out of Hitlers war with Europe.
I guess It just depended which side of the fence your family was on.
In many cases The Spanish Civil War divided families and set brothers against each other.
I guess thats the terrible consequences of war!
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 7:59 am
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by soontoretire
Some of the older Spanish people I know depict a picture of England sitting on the fence during the Civil War, not prepared to help.
In all my years in Spain I never heard that once... of course this will spur my "fan club" to jump in and agree with you and if they do they are idiots (naturally). As a country we couldn't "jump" in and do anything, it would have been seen as an act of aggression against a neutral country but the International Brigade we there and gave their lives freely and comments like that belittle the work they did and the many lives they gave.



Now watch the comments flood in!
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 8:27 am
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Default Re: Civil War

Originally Posted by superskib
I am getting very interested in the Civil War of 1936-9 that preceded Franco's long dictatorship of almost 40 years. Some of the books I am reading suggest that the bitterness that ensued is ongoing...
Learn a bit of Spanish and get to know a few who lived it and are still around to tell the story. Almost every village, town and city has it's own story to tell. However, far from any bitterness remaining, people would far sooner forget and pretend it never happened. Very often I hear horrific stories about men from the same village 'recruited' at a moments notice to fight for opposite sides. If/when they both return home they never mention it.

One example was from a guy in a small village in Bierzo, Northern Spain. He was farming his land when Guardia Civil turned up, told him to drop everything and come with them. He was young at the time (obviously, it was a long time ago), so he left with them thinking he would be back home for tea. Ended up fighting on the front line.

He and his comrades were later rounded up for execution. He remembers seeing nothing, but hearing gun shots at night. Then they came to him and the bunch of people he was sleeping with. Amongst the enemy was his neighbour who pointed him out. He thought he was for the chop, but instead he was simply left to find his own way home. The Two neighbours continued to live in the same village for years afterwards and made no mention of the events.

Of course, it's difficult to know how true many of the stories are. History always gets distorted. They were also very confusing times with so many factions fighting for differnt causes.

Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia' is worth a read.

Anthony Beevors, 'The Spanish Civil War' is possibly the most convincing record I have read myself.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 10:24 am
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Default Re: Civil War

I have read quite a few interesting books on the topic mostly dealing with the actual events of the war as they happened.
However I've not seen very much regarding the events leading up to it and the actual cause or reason for Franco's actions.

For instance the rise of Hitler was put down to a large extent as a result of the fall-out from WW1.

Whilst Franco's attrocities could never in any way be justified,..was he justified in any way for beginning a campaign which he maybe intended to get Spain back on its feet,...which by a twist of circumstances did eventually happen?

Spain seemed to have been suffering a lot of political turmoil long before the war including stories of attacks on churches and priests going back many years previously and also the Republican Govt and its followers appeared to already be in total disarray in the years before the war, as they were during it.
Also in the previous 2 or 3 hundred years Spain appears to have been almost in the Dark ages compared to most of Europe.
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Old Jan 24th 2010, 10:31 am
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Default Re: Civil War

Dark ages is a little harsh, there was still quite a thriving European nation the up until the civil war for sure and had it not been for quite a few American countries supporting the Nationalists then I suspect the Republicans would have had a greater chance in winning the civil war....


Now who was it that said the Americans never meddle in other countries affairs?
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