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Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Old Dec 4th 2005, 11:09 am
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Default Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Dazzle is right in her response to Chiclana whispers, but we need to be realistic about all this rumour and worry.
I began looking at property in Spain a year ago, and having seen the greater value for money inland settled on a house at Puerto Serano. This was a great house with an amazing view a few years old but not legal...built without permission. Most country properties are. My lawyer refused to proceed without checking the deeds.. only the land was shown, and he insisted that the house was registered, which was done by the simple device of claiming a 'fait accompli' as the house was supposedly 5 years old. It fell through for unrelated reasons. I saw some 50 houses between Chiclana and Ayamonte. One was charming at Lucena Del Porto but had been on and off the market, and was very cheap nestling amongst strawberry fields. It had just been sold when we eventually looked at it. We were later told that we should have been very suspicious as it was cheap and in the midst of agricultural land.
The point of these tales is that unless you buy right in a town centre or on an urbanisation then things are often not done the way they would be in England. Even the urbanisations can be a problem , as the one near Alicante recently publicised proves. They had been assured by the town hall that the land would be re zoned, but there was then a change of personnel at the town hall.
Chiclana is increasingly attractive because of it's rural feel, yet it has all the facilities of a town. It is ugly and industrial in parts and beautiful and peaceful in others. It is also superbly positioned for airports..Jerez, Seville, Gibraltar, and even Malaga and Granada are possible as the roads are also superb. The beaches are unspoiled and varied, and prices are low re eating out etc. Culture is never far away with Cadiz and Sevile and Jerez.
There are bound to be hiccups as so many of the houses are on what was agricultural land, but the agent I bought from now drives aroundwith a 4" thick folder of the town plans and will not touch houses in white zones. Another British agent I dealt with had no knowledge of the planned urbanisations etc. I have not yet heard of anyones house being demolished, and still see evidence of the locals throwing up a house on their land whenever they need one in the Spanish way of doing things. If things were all cut and dry prices would possibly be beyond many of our pockets. I have friends who bought in Vejer who are trying to off load their house because of the onerous local planning restrictions which prevent them from improving the place.
I was told many times in my search not to expect to conduct things the way they are in England, one (British) agent even requesting a bag of cash to hand over to a vendor to show good intent !! The agent (British) I bought through secured the house on a EU600 deposit noted on the contract pending the remaining 10% in 14 days. All done at the solicitor.
This is an excellent site. Chiclana is a great place, but please lets not have too many of you flocking here. Just ask the questions....Elex meters, which zone. And don't proceed if the agent says it will all be sorted when you have signed. Be awkward, ask the questions, and walk away if it doesn't feel right. Remember that there are British and Spanish agents looking to make a quick buck out of gullible buyers. Personal recommendation is the best way. I saw a house that was shown to me by my favoured agent being offered at +40,000EU by another British agent.
And just as in buying a house in Britain...Good Luck.
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Old Dec 4th 2005, 3:53 pm
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

What an excellent thread. Congratulations for putting this together. Yes, everything you say about chiclana is true. I love it here but do wish that I had seen this forum before buying. I honestly thought that we would get a meter within a few weeks. Of course, it has never materialised although promised time and time again. I am still waiting for the "Wednesday" when it comes. I was in my local Venta this week and was horrified when it was "taken over" by four car loads of Brits who were very loud and seemed to think the place was theirs. It is a bit worrying that Chiclana will be turned into a little "Costa del Sol" in the future. We bought here to live in Spain not in "Little England".
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Old Dec 4th 2005, 11:24 pm
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Exclamation Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by poollounger
Dazzle is right in her response to Chiclana whispers, but we need to be realistic about all this rumour and worry.
I began looking at property in Spain a year ago, and having seen the greater value for money inland settled on a house at Puerto Serano. This was a great house with an amazing view a few years old but not legal...built without permission. Most country properties are. My lawyer refused to proceed without checking the deeds.. only the land was shown, and he insisted that the house was registered, which was done by the simple device of claiming a 'fait accompli' as the house was supposedly 5 years old. It fell through for unrelated reasons. I saw some 50 houses between Chiclana and Ayamonte. One was charming at Lucena Del Porto but had been on and off the market, and was very cheap nestling amongst strawberry fields. It had just been sold when we eventually looked at it. We were later told that we should have been very suspicious as it was cheap and in the midst of agricultural land.
The point of these tales is that unless you buy right in a town centre or on an urbanisation then things are often not done the way they would be in England. Even the urbanisations can be a problem , as the one near Alicante recently publicised proves. They had been assured by the town hall that the land would be re zoned, but there was then a change of personnel at the town hall.
Chiclana is increasingly attractive because of it's rural feel, yet it has all the facilities of a town. It is ugly and industrial in parts and beautiful and peaceful in others. It is also superbly positioned for airports..Jerez, Seville, Gibraltar, and even Malaga and Granada are possible as the roads are also superb. The beaches are unspoiled and varied, and prices are low re eating out etc. Culture is never far away with Cadiz and Sevile and Jerez.
There are bound to be hiccups as so many of the houses are on what was agricultural land, but the agent I bought from now drives aroundwith a 4" thick folder of the town plans and will not touch houses in white zones. Another British agent I dealt with had no knowledge of the planned urbanisations etc. I have not yet heard of anyones house being demolished, and still see evidence of the locals throwing up a house on their land whenever they need one in the Spanish way of doing things. If things were all cut and dry prices would possibly be beyond many of our pockets. I have friends who bought in Vejer who are trying to off load their house because of the onerous local planning restrictions which prevent them from improving the place.
I was told many times in my search not to expect to conduct things the way they are in England, one (British) agent even requesting a bag of cash to hand over to a vendor to show good intent !! The agent (British) I bought through secured the house on a EU600 deposit noted on the contract pending the remaining 10% in 14 days. All done at the solicitor.
This is an excellent site. Chiclana is a great place, but please lets not have too many of you flocking here. Just ask the questions....Elex meters, which zone. And don't proceed if the agent says it will all be sorted when you have signed. Be awkward, ask the questions, and walk away if it doesn't feel right. Remember that there are British and Spanish agents looking to make a quick buck out of gullible buyers. Personal recommendation is the best way. I saw a house that was shown to me by my favoured agent being offered at +40,000EU by another British agent.
And just as in buying a house in Britain...Good Luck.

I am sorry poollounger but where does one buy the rose coloured spectacles you apparantly you seem to view Chiclana with??

Have you read the article in this weeks Euro Weekly?. The Junta President Manuel Chaves is about to take away from the Marbella administration all matters with regard to planning. They will be unable to sign approval for ANY proposed planning or building work and instead control will be passed to the Regional Government. How long do you think it will be before that happens in Chiclana If things continue as they are at present. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

With regard to your estate agent with her 4 inch thick folder. I believe it is the same one that I had the greatest misfortune to meet and use. She left us with a legal nightmare and in over 18 months has never been near or offered any help or assistance whatsoever. She just took her commision and ran. The solicitor if its the same one she always uses - his excuse was I am sorry I have made a mistake I did not check things out properly and my advice now is to sell the house. This of course would let him completely of the hook. However he did not make a mistake with his fees!!

Incidentally if that 4 inch thick folder she holds so dear to her heart and carries everwhere impressing all and sundry is the new urban plan. Then I believe that this plan has been rejected once again by the Junta!

I am sorry but my advice still stands "Buyer Beware" especially in Chiclana!

Last edited by mitzipurr; Dec 4th 2005 at 11:38 pm.
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Old Dec 5th 2005, 7:55 am
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

According to the local press the Plan has been approved!
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Old Dec 5th 2005, 12:26 pm
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
I am sorry poollounger but where does one buy the rose coloured spectacles you apparantly you seem to view Chiclana with??

Have you read the article in this weeks Euro Weekly?. The Junta President Manuel Chaves is about to take away from the Marbella administration all matters with regard to planning. They will be unable to sign approval for ANY proposed planning or building work and instead control will be passed to the Regional Government. How long do you think it will be before that happens in Chiclana If things continue as they are at present. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

With regard to your estate agent with her 4 inch thick folder. I believe it is the same one that I had the greatest misfortune to meet and use. She left us with a legal nightmare and in over 18 months has never been near or offered any help or assistance whatsoever. She just took her commision and ran. The solicitor if its the same one she always uses - his excuse was I am sorry I have made a mistake I did not check things out properly and my advice now is to sell the house. This of course would let him completely of the hook. However he did not make a mistake with his fees!!

Incidentally if that 4 inch thick folder she holds so dear to her heart and carries everwhere impressing all and sundry is the new urban plan. Then I believe that this plan has been rejected once again by the Junta!

I am sorry but my advice still stands "Buyer Beware" especially in Chiclana!
Ah Mitzipur.....I am not sure what you are intending about the seizure of power from the local authorities....on one hand you seem to infer that this will create problems but then say you cannot wait for it to take place. Also you say you believe the Urban plan has been rejected, the same way you headr rumours about houses being demolished. Unless you can quote your sources and/or post pics of the houses being demolished perhaps it is best not to scare people needlessly?
As to my agent.. I can only vouch for my dealings with her, but have also heard complimentary stories from others who have also used her services.
I also recommended her to a stranger on the plane, and bumping into the same man a month later, he had made favourable contact with her and was also impressed, as even though she had nothing in his range.....a house around 600K in the country, she had recommended several useful others.
I do not want to get embroiled in your dispute with her but know from experience that there are always two sides to a story. It could be interesting to hear her side of the tale.
What I was infering overall was that Chiclana from an environmental and facilities point of view is a great place to be, and yes there may be problems, but as in life there always are, whether one bought in Tuscany, Croatia or Bromley. I live in a large house that was underpinned for a second time some six months after moving in, the other flats were aware but no mention of it on our documents or by our solicitor. Fortunately there was no excess as it was a re pin, but It was an unexpected event.
Perhaps it was you who went into Chiclana, and Spain in general, with rose tinted spectacles....life is never perfect and never will be and realising this at an early stage is the key to a resonable happy existence. Now we could start a thread about the nature of happiness and that could be a corker..........
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Old Dec 5th 2005, 1:57 pm
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

I heard today that Sevillana has 1500 meters for distribution in December. However, they did not say which December!

How can we get copies of the plan which has been approved?
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Old Dec 5th 2005, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by glynis
What an excellent thread. Congratulations for putting this together. Yes, everything you say about chiclana is true. I love it here but do wish that I had seen this forum before buying. I honestly thought that we would get a meter within a few weeks. Of course, it has never materialised although promised time and time again. I am still waiting for the "Wednesday" when it comes. I was in my local Venta this week and was horrified when it was "taken over" by four car loads of Brits who were very loud and seemed to think the place was theirs. It is a bit worrying that Chiclana will be turned into a little "Costa del Sol" in the future. We bought here to live in Spain not in "Little England".
Glynis my Spanish friends from Seville who have a weekend house in Barossa say that the Atlantic winds will ensure it never becomes a Costa del Sol and I am inclined to agree. Let the softies head east I say and leave the wonderful empty beaches to ourselves. I was on my favourite on Tuesday last week......still, warm and tranquil, the first week of December !!
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Old Dec 6th 2005, 9:41 am
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Post Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by poollounger
Ah Mitzipur.....I am not sure what you are intending about the seizure of power from the local authorities....on one hand you seem to infer that this will create problems but then say you cannot wait for it to take place. Also you say you believe the Urban plan has been rejected, the same way you headr rumours about houses being demolished. Unless you can quote your sources and/or post pics of the houses being demolished perhaps it is best not to scare people needlessly?
As to my agent.. I can only vouch for my dealings with her, but have also heard complimentary stories from others who have also used her services.
I also recommended her to a stranger on the plane, and bumping into the same man a month later, he had made favourable contact with her and was also impressed, as even though she had nothing in his range.....a house around 600K in the country, she had recommended several useful others.
I do not want to get embroiled in your dispute with her but know from experience that there are always two sides to a story. It could be interesting to hear her side of the tale.
What I was infering overall was that Chiclana from an environmental and facilities point of view is a great place to be, and yes there may be problems, but as in life there always are, whether one bought in Tuscany, Croatia or Bromley. I live in a large house that was underpinned for a second time some six months after moving in, the other flats were aware but no mention of it on our documents or by our solicitor. Fortunately there was no excess as it was a re pin, but It was an unexpected event.
Perhaps it was you who went into Chiclana, and Spain in general, with rose tinted spectacles....life is never perfect and never will be and realising this at an early stage is the key to a resonable happy existence. Now we could start a thread about the nature of happiness and that could be a corker..........

Hi Poollounger

First of all please let me say that it is not my intention to frighten people merely to help them if I can.

I will clarify my point about seizure of power from the authorities. I was merely saying that Marbella has now had their power seized by the Government due to the fact that the Town Hall have made so many wrong decisions in giving out permissions to build etc. The article is plastered all over the Sur in English frontpage in last Friday's edition.

Of course I would not wish anyone to loose their houses and sincerely hope my theory is wrong. However I think the Marbella case has many similarities??

I dont think I ever said the urban plan had been rejected this was not intended as a statement from me if I did?? I just heard that the plans were not finally approved ie having the rubber stamp on them. I am really pleased the urban plan has been approved so that people can relax and enjoy their new homes. If this is the case then Chiclana now no longer has any excuse for building houses without proper planning permission...

I am so pleased that your agent seems to be finally working for her clients something she should have done in my particular case. However I would also like to hear her side as I really cannot think of any plausable excuses in my particular case??

I do like Chiclana as a place and I have never said otherwise - indeed why would I have bought a house here. I am no wearer of rose coloured spectacles myself and it would be interesting to know how long you yourself have been a spanish resident??

I agree life is never perfect but if you get the correct advice that you are paying for then it does help a lot.

Yes why dont you start a new thread about the nature of happiness???

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Old Dec 6th 2005, 9:43 am
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by glynis
I heard today that Sevillana has 1500 meters for distribution in December. However, they did not say which December!

How can we get copies of the plan which has been approved?
Hi Glynis

I sincerely hope that you get one of the 1500 meters from Sevillana that would be a great present for Santa to bring to you.

Yes I would also like to know how to get copies of the approved plan - my guess would be Urbanismo or maybe on the internet??

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Old Dec 6th 2005, 9:46 am
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Cool Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by poollounger
Glynis my Spanish friends from Seville who have a weekend house in Barossa say that the Atlantic winds will ensure it never becomes a Costa del Sol and I am inclined to agree. Let the softies head east I say and leave the wonderful empty beaches to ourselves. I was on my favourite on Tuesday last week......still, warm and tranquil, the first week of December !!

I hope you are correct as I escaped many years on the Costa del Sol to live here!!

It is always tranquil on the beaches here even in August you can still find a parking place...

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Old Dec 6th 2005, 9:47 am
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Post Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by dazzle
According to the local press the Plan has been approved!
Great news - as Glynis has said where can we get one??

Thanks Dazzle
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Old Dec 6th 2005, 9:56 am
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
Hi Poollounger

First of all please let me say that it is not my intention to frighten people merely to help them if I can.

I will clarify my point about seizure of power from the authorities. I was merely saying that Marbella has now had their power seized by the Government due to the fact that the Town Hall have made so many wrong decisions in giving out permissions to build etc. The article is plastered all over the Sur in English frontpage in last Friday's edition.

Of course I would not wish anyone to loose their houses and sincerely hope my theory is wrong. However I think the Marbella case has many similarities??

I dont think I ever said the urban plan had been rejected this was not intended as a statement from me if I did?? I just heard that the plans were not finally approved ie having the rubber stamp on them. I am really pleased the urban plan has been approved so that people can relax and enjoy their new homes. If this is the case then Chiclana now no longer has any excuse for building houses without proper planning permission...

I am so pleased that your agent seems to be finally working for her clients something she should have done in my particular case. However I would also like to hear her side as I really cannot think of any plausable excuses in my particular case??

I do like Chiclana as a place and I have never said otherwise - indeed why would I have bought a house here. I am no wearer of rose coloured spectacles myself and it would be interesting to know how long you yourself have been a spanish resident??

I agree life is never perfect but if you get the correct advice that you are paying for then it does help a lot.

Yes why dont you start a new thread about the nature of happiness???

I am not a resident and do not think I ever will be. I am aware that the idyllic nature of any place can pall after a while....if they weren't so far away my residence of choice would be one of the atolls in the Maldives, or Sri Lanka or Thailand. Perpetual sun and sand can all too easily pall after a while. And I would miss the opportunity for a cultural fix once in a while.
Correct advice is difficult to gauge. If so we could all lead perfect lives without any hiccups. It is always open to interpretation. One often trusts in so called professionals but they are fallible and make mistakes, be it a brain surgeon or a council clerk. Unless one has set out deliberately to defraud, conceal or mislead then this may be due to human error or inexperience, or a constantly changing set of parameters.
By the way do you get British TV ?? Try watching 'Making Slough Happy'.
The Junta taking control of planning decisions is perhaps to control possible corruption?? But may it replace one set of corrupters with another?? Things are often not so very different here in Britain.
When are you bringing the situation with your house to court etc etc ?? The sooner you resolve it the better!!!!

Last edited by poollounger; Dec 6th 2005 at 10:01 am.
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Old Dec 6th 2005, 10:05 pm
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Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by poollounger
I am not a resident and do not think I ever will be. I am aware that the idyllic nature of any place can pall after a while....if they weren't so far away my residence of choice would be one of the atolls in the Maldives, or Sri Lanka or Thailand. Perpetual sun and sand can all too easily pall after a while. And I would miss the opportunity for a cultural fix once in a while.
Correct advice is difficult to gauge. If so we could all lead perfect lives without any hiccups. It is always open to interpretation. One often trusts in so called professionals but they are fallible and make mistakes, be it a brain surgeon or a council clerk. Unless one has set out deliberately to defraud, conceal or mislead then this may be due to human error or inexperience, or a constantly changing set of parameters.
By the way do you get British TV ?? Try watching 'Making Slough Happy'.
The Junta taking control of planning decisions is perhaps to control possible corruption?? But may it replace one set of corrupters with another?? Things are often not so very different here in Britain.
When are you bringing the situation with your house to court etc etc ?? The sooner you resolve it the better!!!!


Hi Poollounger

About Thailand now you are talking my language. The stories I could tell you. We have friends there and spent a month this year visiting them and traveling to various parts . What wonderful hospitable people the Thais are. It was such a refreshing change to be treated like a human being and to know that the money you spent in their country was so much appreciated and not taken for granted. It really is the “land of smiles”.

I agree human error can and does occur but this is very unlikely in my case for the following reasons. The seller had instructed all the Estate agents handling the sale to explain and make very clear to any potential buyer the discrepancy between the Escitura and the reality so far as the land size was concerned. So what possible excuse can she have for not telling me about this very important detail. We are not talking about a few meters of land here but over 720m of urban land which has been valued at approx 150.000 euros!! I am under the impression that you seem to think it was inexperience or incompetence by this agent that has led to my problem.
How then do you explain when acting as the official translator at the Notary there was no mention of land size when translating this document in front of him. Had she translated these facts then the house sale would NOT have gone through. She knew this for certain because I told her on numerous occasions that I would not even consider buying a house with problems. Also what about the lawyer. It was his responsibility to check out all the facts and paperwork a lawyer that she recommended me to use. Over to you!

Yes I do get British TV – but I have not seen the programme you mention, I will look out for it.

You may be quite correct in your statement the Junta versus the rest, but I sincerely hope not or where will it all end?? It is possibly quite correct that they are aiming to control the corruption. Marbella council has sanctioned the building of millions of pounds worth of illegal properties in banned zones time after time despite being told to stop.

With regards to my situation. It is a long and winding road and the emotional cost is very high. Let us say just as soon as I have more to tell it will be posted here. The English especially northeners are likened to terriers and do not let anything drop without one h--l of a fight!!!
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Old Dec 7th 2005, 11:13 am
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poollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
Hi Poollounger

About Thailand now you are talking my language. The stories I could tell you. We have friends there and spent a month this year visiting them and traveling to various parts . What wonderful hospitable people the Thais are. It was such a refreshing change to be treated like a human being and to know that the money you spent in their country was so much appreciated and not taken for granted. It really is the “land of smiles”.

I agree human error can and does occur but this is very unlikely in my case for the following reasons. The seller had instructed all the Estate agents handling the sale to explain and make very clear to any potential buyer the discrepancy between the Escitura and the reality so far as the land size was concerned. So what possible excuse can she have for not telling me about this very important detail. We are not talking about a few meters of land here but over 720m of urban land which has been valued at approx 150.000 euros!! I am under the impression that you seem to think it was inexperience or incompetence by this agent that has led to my problem.
How then do you explain when acting as the official translator at the Notary there was no mention of land size when translating this document in front of him. Had she translated these facts then the house sale would NOT have gone through. She knew this for certain because I told her on numerous occasions that I would not even consider buying a house with problems. Also what about the lawyer. It was his responsibility to check out all the facts and paperwork a lawyer that she recommended me to use. Over to you!

Yes I do get British TV – but I have not seen the programme you mention, I will look out for it.

You may be quite correct in your statement the Junta versus the rest, but I sincerely hope not or where will it all end?? It is possibly quite correct that they are aiming to control the corruption. Marbella council has sanctioned the building of millions of pounds worth of illegal properties in banned zones time after time despite being told to stop.

With regards to my situation. It is a long and winding road and the emotional cost is very high. Let us say just as soon as I have more to tell it will be posted here. The English especially northeners are likened to terriers and do not let anything drop without one h--l of a fight!!!
Se my pm Mitzi
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Old Dec 7th 2005, 11:13 am
  #15  
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poollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to beholdpoollounger is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Chiclana in perspective and not whispered

Originally Posted by mitzipurr
Hi Poollounger

About Thailand now you are talking my language. The stories I could tell you. We have friends there and spent a month this year visiting them and traveling to various parts . What wonderful hospitable people the Thais are. It was such a refreshing change to be treated like a human being and to know that the money you spent in their country was so much appreciated and not taken for granted. It really is the “land of smiles”.

I agree human error can and does occur but this is very unlikely in my case for the following reasons. The seller had instructed all the Estate agents handling the sale to explain and make very clear to any potential buyer the discrepancy between the Escitura and the reality so far as the land size was concerned. So what possible excuse can she have for not telling me about this very important detail. We are not talking about a few meters of land here but over 720m of urban land which has been valued at approx 150.000 euros!! I am under the impression that you seem to think it was inexperience or incompetence by this agent that has led to my problem.
How then do you explain when acting as the official translator at the Notary there was no mention of land size when translating this document in front of him. Had she translated these facts then the house sale would NOT have gone through. She knew this for certain because I told her on numerous occasions that I would not even consider buying a house with problems. Also what about the lawyer. It was his responsibility to check out all the facts and paperwork a lawyer that she recommended me to use. Over to you!

Yes I do get British TV – but I have not seen the programme you mention, I will look out for it.

You may be quite correct in your statement the Junta versus the rest, but I sincerely hope not or where will it all end?? It is possibly quite correct that they are aiming to control the corruption. Marbella council has sanctioned the building of millions of pounds worth of illegal properties in banned zones time after time despite being told to stop.

With regards to my situation. It is a long and winding road and the emotional cost is very high. Let us say just as soon as I have more to tell it will be posted here. The English especially northeners are likened to terriers and do not let anything drop without one h--l of a fight!!!
See my pm Mitzi
poollounger is offline  

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