Retired in Euskadi

Thanks. I've since found it in a book I have where it says of the person who said it, one Jewish atheist lawyer, Edward Tabash:
"If the God of the bible actually exists, I want to sue him for negligence, for being asleep at the wheel of the universe when my grandfather & uncle were gassed in Auschwitz".
Most atheists would agree. But another Auschwitz survivor came to different conclusion:
"Whilst an inmate, it never occurred me to blame God for not coming to our aid; God doesn't owe us that or anything else. We owe our lives to him."

The gas chambers were an answer to the atheist's 'theory about evolution', that we're nothing but the product of heredity & environment.

So we 2 sides to the debate still! The problem with evil & suffering shouldn't really concern the atheist at all, since surely how can you say what is evil? If there's no God, there's no moral law; it's only the Christian who cannot fully come to terms with suffering, the one who does believe in the God of the bible.

jimenato

You are back to this one - that morality comes from God and therefore atheists who have no belief in any gods cannot tell good from evil.

You are telling me, an atheist, that I shouldn't have a problem with evil and suffering because I have no moral code.

Do you see why I might find what you are saying objectionable?

Retired in Euskadi

Yes, I do, but wait a minute. If you have a moral code, then where does it come from? Evolution has no answer to that. Would you accept that you were perhaps born with some sort of moral code? If so, that must imply you have a sense of right and wrong. But in the atheist's world right and wrong are extremely relative terms. What's right to some people, is wrong to others. So before you know where you are, you might be "playing God" as it were, juggling moral issues about.
You can't have it both ways.

lutonlad

You're incredible RM. Do you know that ?
Mystic powers or what!

There I was, playing Duplo with my Grandkids.
Got home and I saw your post!

Gobsmacked! Need a drink!

rugbymatt

It's not just with atheists that right and wrong are relative.

Lion in Winter

Ethics is a very interesting discussion. As to where they come from, well, many people have thought long and hard to develop ethical/moral codes. I think that some of it does have evolutionary elements, such as when the individual sacrifices him/her self for the greater good. You might think that evolution favours selfish individualism, but not always. Sometimes "group" behaviour is an advantage to create a stronger society. And the human race lives in societies, not as separate individuals, for evolutionary reasons, I would say. So not killing others or engaging in other antisocial behaviour could easily be an evolutionary matter.

This is not to say that all philosophies or individual standards of behaviour are completely the result of evolution, because they are probably not. Evolution functions over a very, very long time scale and does not always guide us to immediately successful behaviour - you only have to look at the self-destructive behaviour of some to see that. But I see the individual choices we make, and how we think about what we should and should not do, as precisely that - our choice, not a code that fell from the sky. We weren't born with that. We were born with the instinctive stuff of self-preservation - the rest we start to learn at a very early age from the society around us, too early to remember when it started.

stuboy

Would you not agree Matt that at least Christianity has moved forwards as regards to the interpretation of its teaching?

Modern Christianity no longer calls for or demands some of the barbaric whereas modern Islam calls for even harsher interpretations than previously imagined.

rugbymatt

Who are you listening to though? Islam itself doesn't encourage it's believers to go and kill people. In fact there are quite strict laws and rules about killing people in Islam, it's the interpretation by evil people with their own agendas that is to blame. You can see this by the distinct lack of Mad Mullahs that go and blow themselves up. If it really was the word of Allah that killing the infidels sends you to your personal paradise then they would be blowing themselves up as well.


Wasn't it this week that the pope issued an absolutely ludicrous declaration about exorcism? The only difference is that the Catholic Church is now more focused on making billions while it's believers live in abject poverty.

EMR

Just as the Pope does not speak for all Christians, so these extreme Muslims also do not represent their religion.
Their views as not " modern " it is just with the ease which the world media can be accessed these views which some sects of islam hold have been around since the foundation of that religion.

Retired in Euskadi

Yes, all very interesting, but for me leaves too much to chance. Hitler was adept at taking advantage of group behaviour.
Being born with "the instinctive stuff of self preservation" merely begs the question "what's instinct & where does it come from"?
We start to learn lots at an early age, and the young child soon learns how to wrap their parents round their little fingers; always testing boundaries; always preferring "naughtiness" to spark a reaction. So where do they learn all that from?

lutonlad

Off topic, but ...

I notice from your username and location that you use Basque.
Having traveled through the region on occasions, I found the language fascinating with seemingly little resemblance to Spanish.
Just interested to find out how difficult it is to learn Basque.

jimenato

If you were to answer your own questions would the answer be "God"? If so, why?

Retired in Euskadi

At my age, "impossible"!! No, seriously, my son, who lives here also & is 34 speaks it fluently, but then he has youth on his side, & works for a Basque company.
I can get by, having been to evening classes, but the problem with it is that there's no reference to other languages, where sometimes you can half guess.
For instance, the word "eskuma" means 'right' (direction). In Spanish it's 'derecha', French = 'droit' & German 'rechts'. So with the Basque 'eskuma' you haven't a clue because you're clueless!! Wait till you get to the verbs.
They have what's known as the 'ergative' case, which means that if the verb is transitive (e.g. to buy) the "I" as in I bought an apple" takes a 'k', so it becomes 'nik sagarra bat erosi dut'. And if you said 'I bought 6 apples' boy, do you need to stop & think!! You now have apples in the plural & accusative case, so the participle of the verb is also plural!! 'Nik sei sagarra erosi dituzte'.
Are you still there or asleep??!!!!

And I'm supposed to be retired, having an easy life!!!!

Retired in Euskadi

I'd say that what we call instinct, language ability, a sense of right & wrong, which are all there at birth is what God has pre-programmed. The risk he took was in allowing us freedom to choose rather than be mere automatons, so that if we prefer at the age of 2 to throw a tantrum, or pinch a biscuit from the tin & say nothing to mum & dad, or as a teenager to 'experiment' with the opposite sex for all of which we know what is 'right' & what is 'wrong', then it's all part of our growing up. But originally, before "The fall of man" (Adam deciding to eat the forbidden fruit) naughtiness (sin) was not part of our make-up.
Interestingly, the earth was also in harmony; there were no floods, earthquakes etc.

But, that's my personal belief, backed up by knowing He never fails, will always wish us to be near to Him no matter what we do. It's a love that I just cannot imagine, but I believe in it.

Lion in Winter

Biology and experience?

I mean, why would your answer be "a supreme being"? What evidence is there for that? So far, your arguments are based on the negative - "I can't explain this adquately so it must be a supreme being."