andyinfo

Hi All

BTB Its -2C and blizzards of snow in the East Midlands........

I've spent some time looking at the previous threads mentioning ECO, logcabins and other related keywords so think starting this new thread will be OK?

There seems to be some understandable variances in opinions about planning requirements for building 'temporary' homes and whether any planning approval is required for rural land of a hectare +.

I'm a carpenter/joiner and planning to spend as much of 2010 in Alicante as possible. I'm particularly interested in the area inside the triangle formed by Alicante city, Alcoy and Benidorm, preferably 200m + to take advantage of the micro climate and hopefully lower land prices away from the coast. Plan A is build a small 50-75m square timber framed house no conventional concrete foundations with as much that can be done to prepare for eventual disconnection from electric and water/sewage grid.

Anyone got a heads up for rules/regs in Valencia/Alicante for likely pitfalls.

If anyone is interested in discussing renewable energy sources or permaculture principles around this type of building I'm happy to outline my own plans or hear your own.

Cheers in advance

Andy

rugbymatt

Do a search for a poster called Intuitivenipple they were planning on doing just the same thing, we had a thread going for a while all about it.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/member.php?u=64646

Fred James

It obviously depends on the area but generally any sort of wooden building is classed as a temporary building and will not get a licence as a proper house which means no connections to utilities.

Wherever you build, without exception, you will need a building licence.

Building on non urban land is a nightmare in Spain. In some regions a hectare may be considered sufficient but 3 hectares is often the norm and on top of that, permission is often refused unless you can prove you are a bona fide farmer and paying all the relevant taxes.

The rules have tightened up nationally and specifically in the regions and you need to be very careful before embarking on such a project or you could face severe fines and possible demolition if you have not obeyed the rules to the letter.

Whatever you do, do not accept what the town hall tell you - it is the regional governments who have the ultimate say. They are soon going to have to build a special prison for all the mayors who have been convicted of planning crimes!

andyinfo

Thanks to the two of you. The link to IntuitiveNipple's posts were useful Matt ta.

Another classic example of stuff you can't research or resolve unless you are.....in Spain! I'm over on the 6th for a couple of weeks and then hopefully in March the move.....will rent an apartment near Alicante initially and spend some time looking around and meeting as many people as possible.

Permaculture is the underlying driver to what I'm doing so a bit of research into land usage at the region/provincia level essential. Oh and just enjoy the beautiful countryside in the foothills of those mountains inland from Benidorm. Unbelievable altitudes....I drove across the M62 a few days ago and saw the sign for the Highest motorway in the UK at Saddleworth Moor...372m..he he a small hill.

Anyhoo thanks for the rapid response, I've left a message for IntuitiveNipple too.

Andy

HBG

I can’t resist replying to this thread to reinforce the above.

I live near to Catral and we have close friends there. It’s a small Spanish town surrounded by poor agricultural land. Over the past five years or so, 1,300 illegal houses were built on this land and mostly sold to foreign expats. The current council wants to legalise the houses by charging a fee of one percent of their value to the house owners, without any guarantee that the regional government will go along with this scheme.

Recently, I saw that the previous mayor is running for re-election and blames the foreign buyers, and the current council, for getting into this mess.

He said, to the Spanish press, that the buyers and the town hall (he) knew the properties were illegal, because they were so cheap. Had he stayed in power, the council would have fined all the house owners, as they have always done, to pay the taxes to the regional government, with a bit left over for the town of Catral and its poor people.

I’ve lived in Spain for long enough to appreciate some of the current and past council’s logic. Why should the poor Spanish people of Catral pay for the foreigners and their fancy houses on what should have been rural land? Most of them have even built swimming pools without permission.

To get back to wooden houses, there are lots of them around Catral too. A UK resident sold some of them under false pretences, because they are definitely illegal, and he went to prison for it.

andyinfo

Hi

I understand the reason for caution with some of the developments in Valencia, especially those towards Murcia in fact I'm surprised its only 1300.

My reasons to want to live and work in Spain have nothing to do with the sort of low quality 'cheap' and probably illegally built houses you describe. Finding a piece of land and self building a modest home from sustainable local materials and having little or no resource footprint on the environment is what I and an increasing number of people are choosing.

Purchasing land and building a home will always have an element of risk attached to it in Spain or elswhere, while I thank all contributors to my initial request for advice there is a tendency for some contributors to present only the negative aspects of 'Living and Moving Abroad'. I'll rent during 2010 and do my research while I'm over there.

Cheers

Andy

HBG

The idea of renting before buying is exactly what should be done.

I should mention that the detached villas built on rural land around Catral were not cheap, only in the context that they were illegal, their proper value otherwise would be in the region of £300,000 to 400,000, all of them are on large plots, and most of them well built by local builders with local materials.

Spanish development laws are totally different to the UK, If you do buy a finca with at least 10,000 square metres, you can’t just demolish the existing building, probably a ruin, you can only renovate it without making any changes to the overall size and character.

If you buy rural land without a building on it, you can’t build on it, unless the local town plan is altered to allow it. It does happen for large plots from time to time, and entire developments are built, it can’t happen for a solitary house.

However, there are no shortages of ruins for sale with the necessary plot size, without services of any sort connected. It’s when you buy those and start digging that problems quickly arise. Even with planning permission and all services connected some years later, you may find that a motorway or some other project of benefit to the local town hall will lead to what’s known as the ‘land grab’, or compulsory purchase in the UK.

You mention negative comments and there are some from the million Brits who have made their home in Spain, but your specific question about self-builds can’t be answered in any other way.

By the way, the 1,300 illegal homes are only around a small town near Alicante city, if you look at the entire Alicante region the numbers are much higher.

Positively, the great majority of expats enjoy their lives in Spain, especially near the coast.

Rotor

In most areas a timber house comes under the same planning laws as a brick one so nothing gained/avoided, if you want to live in the country and have a project buy a ruin and get permission to restore it ,virtually no risks so long as the property has an escritura and nota simple.NEVER BUY ANYTHING ON A PRIVATE CONTRACT.

With a restoration you can usually get away with not having an archietect {very expensive here} and you are usually charged 10% of the cost of the repair by your local town hall for permission to do the work, so it pays to exagerate

Fred James

I doubt that you can avoid using an architect as the building licence will almost certainly require that an architect is involved unless it is a very minor project.

Also in some regions, Andalucia for example, a "ruin" has to still have a roof otherwise it will not be eligible for a reformation - this is because people were reforming a pile of bricks! It must also conform to the exact footprint of the original building.

The cost of building licences vary from one town hall to another but 10% is pretty high, 3 - 6% is more normal.

When you say it is better to exaggerate the cost, I assume you don't really mean that - normally one submits a much lower than actual figure when applying. However this can also be a problem as many town halls are now asking for proof of the actual costs with receipts and retrospectively charging the licence fees on the larger amount.

pete_l

My town hall sends out it's own assessors to calculate how much your building license will cost - based on 3% of their estimated value of the work (incl. materials and labour).

Rotor

[QUOTE=Fred James;8191521]I doubt that you can avoid using an architect as the building licence will almost certainly require that an architect is involved unless it is a very minor project.

Also in some regions, Andalucia for example, a "ruin" has to still have a roof otherwise it will not be eligible for a reformation - this is because people were reforming a pile of bricks! It must also conform to the exact footprint of the original building.

The cost of building licences vary from one town hall to another but 10% is pretty high, 3 - 6% is more normal.

When you say it is better to exaggerate the cost, I assume you don't really mean that - normally one submits a much lower than actual figure when applying. However this can also be a problem as many town halls are now asking for proof of the actual costs with receipts and retrospectively charging the licence fees on the larger amount.[/QUOTE]

I did not hear about this in the pub or read it in some crappy ex pat magazine like many posters here Ive actually done it, 3 times

andyinfo

Thanks again to all contributors, your comments and experience are valued. We live in a changing world and while I appreciate the UK isn't Spain things to do with planning consent and building regulation approval are changing rapidly. Local and central government failure to provide affordable resource efficient housing is forcing through changes that only 3 or 4 years ago would have been very difficult if not impossible. This includes changes in the designation of land, the creation of co-operatives to share the cost of expensive land and an acceptance by building control officers that the homes being built by off gridders far exceed their own standards for sustainability.

These changes aren't being taken advantage of by people wanting to make a quick buck, that's partly why we're all in the financial mire we have now. Its being assessed and approved or not on the merits of the individual case by individuals or small groups of like minded people.

Spain is a very attractive country now for a new profile of 'Brit' relocator, if you choose the right area it is relatively (comared to the UK) easy to achieve off grid or close to off grid status. Spain leads Europe, and is in the top 5 countires in the world deploying and researching sustainable and renewable energy, not that in my experience many spaniards seem to know about it. Massive solar PV projects wind and wave projects make the UKs cynical attitude to renewables look very modest. It looks like the UK will follow France and build nuclear stations.

I just love Spain and spanish culture so want to be part of that anyway wherever I live.

Merry Christmas everyone in the group

Andy

Fred James

So have I and I had to pay a lot of money after completion as the original project estimate was understated.

angiescarr

If anyone is interested in discussing renewable energy sources or permaculture principles around this type of building I'm happy to outline my own plans or hear your own.

Cheers in advance

Andy[/QUOTE]

Hi Andy
I'm self-building in Huelva province. I'm planning to go partially off grid with Solar and a woodburner for heating, solar electricity and water from my well. I live in the middle of a village. So my terraced house can't be a 'cabin'. I've been throiugh most of the paperwork and a lot of the paying but still have some way to go before I get my 'Licencia de primer ocupacion'. Been hit by the exchange rate. But like you, I CHOSE to live in Spain and don't like too much unnecessary carping about the Spanish people and the Spanish system. Though I do like the odd rant!;-)

Rotor

Bad luck ,Ive never had to pay extra .