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Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Old Nov 9th 2016, 7:41 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

My brain hurts trying to follow this.
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Old Nov 9th 2016, 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by bobd22
Yes I had gathered that. But I know some people are clinging to it in hope? As I said previously main thing everyone needs to know realy is how Brexit may or may not affect health care firstly and annual pension increase second.
Tell them not to. They'll only be disappointed. Healthcare and pensions are likely to continue as before but no-one will be able to give you any guarantees.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 1:38 am
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Many, many practical and legal reasons
Well if it were to be passed then it becomes law so that solves the legal reasons
but the main political one is the lack of reciprocity.
But not everything is reciprocal. Ever since we've been members there have been many social security benefits available to European Citizens in the UK with no equivalent available to Brits in other countries.

Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
Why should the rest of the EU give British citizens all the benefits of being in the EU when its own citizens will not be given the same privileges?
I'm not entirely sure that being able to live in another EU country represents "all the benefits of being in the EU" as I'm sure there are others.

And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.

But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.

Originally Posted by bobd22
....Also let's say this associate membership gets go ahead and works, what then happens to those that take it but uk says no free health care or pension increases?
Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 7:34 am
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Well if it were to be passed then it becomes law so that solves the legal reasons
Apart from the small issue that the EU is not a sovereign state. If they decide to form the United States of Europe then sure, but until then, not so much.

But not everything is reciprocal. Ever since we've been members there have been many social security benefits available to European Citizens in the UK with no equivalent available to Brits in other countries.

Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
That is not correct. Each country has to offer what it offers to its own citizens. That is reciprocity.

I'm not entirely sure that being able to live in another EU country represents "all the benefits of being in the EU" as I'm sure there are others.

And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.

But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.
Still isn't going to happen.

Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
If there's a reciprocal agreement they do which comes back neatly to my first point.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 8:40 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

[QUOTE=BristolUK;12100786

Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases. [/QUOTE]

All Uk pensioners in receipt of state pension are entitled to free health care in the EU currently they simply apply using the S1 form. There are more than a "few" state pension age pensioners living in the EU.
The reason that people from the EU that are resident in the uk get free health care etc is because the uk system is residency based not contribution based, most eu countries are not residency based.
The reason that retirees resident in the USA get annual pension increase is because the uk and USA have a reciprocal agreement. Those in Canada Australia and many other places don't have such agreements so pension is frozen. The point being made is reciprocal agreements.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 8:43 am
  #21  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Tell them not to. They'll only be disappointed. Healthcare and pensions are likely to continue as before but no-one will be able to give you any guarantees.
Exactly no one knows. Hence this plan could not realisticy be considered.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 12:42 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BritInParis
Apart from the small issue that the EU is not a sovereign state. If they decide to form the United States of Europe then sure, but until then, not so much.
That sounds like a technicality. You mentioned legal problems. We always hear of EU employment law. Is that a fiction then?

If the EU passes something that says citizens of a former EU nation may retain status as a citizen of the EU what is the legal problem?

That is not correct. Each country has to offer what it offers to its own citizens. That is reciprocity.
Is it? I thought you were suggesting that if the EU allows say Brits post Brexit to have the same rights in Europe as before Brexit reciprocal arrangements would mean other EU citizens should have the same rights in Britain.

But I am making the point that there are already rights for EU citizens in the UK that Brits don't have in Europe.

Originally Posted by bobd22
All Uk pensioners in receipt of state pension are entitled to free health care in the EU currently they simply apply using the S1 form. There are more than a "few" state pension age pensioners living in the EU.
Yes, those are the few I mentioned. Relatively compared to overall numbers.
The reason that people from the EU that are resident in the uk get free health care etc is because the uk system is residency based not contribution based, most eu countries are not residency based.
Well there you go, you agree with me then. Britain makes services and benefits and housing etc available to EU citizens in certain circumstances where those things are not available to Brits in other EU countries in the same circumstances. So not everything is reciprocal.

The reason that retirees resident in the USA get annual pension increase is because the uk and USA have a reciprocal agreement. Those in Canada Australia and many other places don't have such agreements so pension is frozen. The point being made is reciprocal agreements.
Yes but you suggested that not being in Europe could cause pensions not to be uprated. There could still be a reciprocal arrangement on that issue or the government could simply say that the pensioners will retain their uprating rights just as this proposal allows EU citizens to retain their rights to EU citizenship.

See, not everything has to be reciprocated.
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Old Nov 10th 2016, 7:01 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BristolUK
That sounds like a technicality. You mentioned legal problems. We always hear of EU employment law. Is that a fiction then?

If the EU passes something that says citizens of a former EU nation may retain status as a citizen of the EU what is the legal problem?


Is it? I thought you were suggesting that if the EU allows say Brits post Brexit to have the same rights in Europe as before Brexit reciprocal arrangements would mean other EU citizens should have the same rights in Britain.

But I am making the point that there are already rights for EU citizens in the UK that Brits don't have in Europe.


Yes, those are the few I mentioned. Relatively compared to overall numbers.

Well there you go, you agree with me then. Britain makes services and benefits and housing etc available to EU citizens in certain circumstances where those things are not available to Brits in other EU countries in the same circumstances. So not everything is reciprocal.


Yes but you suggested that not being in Europe could cause pensions not to be uprated. There could still be a reciprocal arrangement on that issue or the government could simply say that the pensioners will retain their uprating rights just as this proposal allows EU citizens to retain their rights to EU citizenship.

See, not everything has to be reciprocated.
When I mention reciprocal that refers to tax arrangements not health care. I merely pointed out to you the difference for health care between uk and most other eu members. I can't see Spain wishing to pick up their tab? Not long ago some hospitals in Spain were declining to honour the EHIC until it was reported to the eu. Seems to me you just want to argue so I am out.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 1:28 am
  #24  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by bobd22
When I mention reciprocal that refers to tax arrangements not health care.
I see. So it won't work because it wouldn't be reciprocal and other examples of things that aren't reciprocal don't count because you didn't refer to them and I did.

Excuse me for having referred to them
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 10:53 am
  #25  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Wrote to my MEP to request her support for this and received the following reply, which indicates (to me) that there is still a chance this will happen ...

Dear XXXX

Thank you for your email about the proposal for British people to have associate European citizenship, even after Britain leaves the European Union (EU).

I am pleased to say that this idea has come from my Liberal colleague, Charles Goerens, and something I completely support. Charles Goerens has tabled amendment to a report in the European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee. The committee is due to vote on the amendment on 21st November, and if approved, all MEPs will vote on the report in December.

This associate membership would provide rights such as the freedom of movement and the right to reside in the EU Member States. Following the reciprocal principle of ‘no taxation without representation’, these associate citizens should pay an annual membership fee directly into the EU budget. In return, EU associate citizens will be able to stand and vote in the European elections on trans-national European lists.

As a passionate pro-European MEP, I am continuing to stand up for the 48% of voters who wished to remain European citizens with all the advantages that this brings, and this amendment would do that. The EU should facilitate associate voluntary EU citizenship for those who, against their will, are being stripped of their European identity. Individual EU associate citizenship could provide a practical solution for UK citizens aggrieved by Brexit.

I understand initial talks with other parliamentarians regarding my amendment have been positive, but there is a long way to go to make this a reality. This proposal from the Liberal Group will ultimately require changes to the EU treaties, but this will be necessary anyway, to remove mention of the UK from the EU treaties after Brexit.

I hope this response is supportive and thank you for writing to me about this important issue. If you feel I can be of any further help on this or any other European matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX

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Old Nov 11th 2016, 12:24 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Hope it can work.
One of my issues with Brexit is that my children and grandchildren were born EU citizens now Brexit has taken that away from them - that can't be right
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 1:24 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I see. So it won't work because it wouldn't be reciprocal and other examples of things that aren't reciprocal don't count because you didn't refer to them and I did.

Excuse me for having referred to them
As I said previously not arguing with you or anyone else just pointing out a fact as to why eu residents in uk get free health care in uk. If countries or even the eu come up with health care on reciprocal agreements then great but I can't see anywhere that is being mentioned? Certainly not in this proposal for associated eu membership. From the letter posted from the MP it is simply freedom of movement for which you make an unknown payment to the EU coffers. I would say let's wait and see what happens with this proposal and let's wait and see what comes out of negotiations once or if article 50 is triggered.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 1:36 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by bobd22
If countries or even the eu come up with health care on reciprocal agreements then great but I can't see anywhere that is being mentioned?
That's because it wasn't mentioned in the proposal. I mentioned it as just one of a few examples of a lack of reciprocal arrangements as a counter to the point made against the proposal on the basis it couldn't work because there was no reciprocal part to it.

Clearly if other things work with no reciprocal arrangement then it's nonsense to say something won't work without a reciprocal arrangement.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by BristolUK
That's because it wasn't mentioned in the proposal. I mentioned it as just one of a few examples of a lack of reciprocal arrangements as a counter to the point made against the proposal on the basis it couldn't work UIbecause there was no reciprocal part to it.

Clearly if other things work with no reciprocal arrangement then it's nonsense to say something won't work without a reciprocal arrangement.
I don't see anywhere that I have said that? However quite simply the points i made were on health currently Health care in uk is residency based not contribution based most eu countries including Spain are contribution based. State pension annual increases currently included in the triple lock are paid to EU pensioners and certain other ex pat resident in certain countries with reciprocal agreements. So yes reciprocal agreements can work but currently within the eu are irrelevant as eu legislation covers the matters. What happens after or if we leave? Maybe the governments will come to reciprocal arrangements who knows. Certainly this proposed proposal from what I have seen does not cover these issues only freedom of movement. That is fine if one is retired and can afford private health care but not to those that can't.
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Old Nov 11th 2016, 2:06 pm
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Default Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship

Originally Posted by bobd22
I don't see anywhere that I have said that?
In response to my "care to say why it wouldn't work" BritInParis responded "Many, many practical and legal reasons but the main political one is the lack of reciprocity" (my emphasis)

You followed, quoting that part, with "I was just about to post literally the same" so it rather sounded as if a lack of reciprocity was a major obstacle for the proposal with you too.

My apologies if I took that too literally.
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