Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
#16
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 57
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
My brain hurts trying to follow this.
#17
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Tell them not to. They'll only be disappointed. Healthcare and pensions are likely to continue as before but no-one will be able to give you any guarantees.
#18
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Well if it were to be passed then it becomes law so that solves the legal reasons
But not everything is reciprocal. Ever since we've been members there have been many social security benefits available to European Citizens in the UK with no equivalent available to Brits in other countries.
Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
I'm not entirely sure that being able to live in another EU country represents "all the benefits of being in the EU" as I'm sure there are others.
And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.
But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.
Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
but the main political one is the lack of reciprocity.
Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
Why should the rest of the EU give British citizens all the benefits of being in the EU when its own citizens will not be given the same privileges?
And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.
But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
#19
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
But not everything is reciprocal. Ever since we've been members there have been many social security benefits available to European Citizens in the UK with no equivalent available to Brits in other countries.
Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
Not sure what the latest NHS rules are but I believe that certain care is free (at least it was for many years) for EU citizens while there's no free equivalent provided to Brits by all the other EU members.
I'm not entirely sure that being able to live in another EU country represents "all the benefits of being in the EU" as I'm sure there are others.
And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.
But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.
And who says its own citizens won't be given the same advantages? It's not been decided yet and in any case someone living in the other country is contributing to that economy.
But what about this...does the EU want Britain to leave? Probably not. What would make it easier somewhere down the line for Britain to rejoin? How about if it's citizens already had free movement rights within the EU.
Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases.
#20
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
[QUOTE=BristolUK;12100786
Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases. [/QUOTE]
All Uk pensioners in receipt of state pension are entitled to free health care in the EU currently they simply apply using the S1 form. There are more than a "few" state pension age pensioners living in the EU.
The reason that people from the EU that are resident in the uk get free health care etc is because the uk system is residency based not contribution based, most eu countries are not residency based.
The reason that retirees resident in the USA get annual pension increase is because the uk and USA have a reciprocal agreement. Those in Canada Australia and many other places don't have such agreements so pension is frozen. The point being made is reciprocal agreements.
Hang on, I don't think people living outside the UK do get free healthcare anyway. I believe a few pensioners do.
And why would they say that anyway, especially with regard to pension increases. State Pensioners living in the USA get increases. [/QUOTE]
All Uk pensioners in receipt of state pension are entitled to free health care in the EU currently they simply apply using the S1 form. There are more than a "few" state pension age pensioners living in the EU.
The reason that people from the EU that are resident in the uk get free health care etc is because the uk system is residency based not contribution based, most eu countries are not residency based.
The reason that retirees resident in the USA get annual pension increase is because the uk and USA have a reciprocal agreement. Those in Canada Australia and many other places don't have such agreements so pension is frozen. The point being made is reciprocal agreements.
#21
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
#22
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
If the EU passes something that says citizens of a former EU nation may retain status as a citizen of the EU what is the legal problem?
That is not correct. Each country has to offer what it offers to its own citizens. That is reciprocity.
But I am making the point that there are already rights for EU citizens in the UK that Brits don't have in Europe.
The reason that people from the EU that are resident in the uk get free health care etc is because the uk system is residency based not contribution based, most eu countries are not residency based.
The reason that retirees resident in the USA get annual pension increase is because the uk and USA have a reciprocal agreement. Those in Canada Australia and many other places don't have such agreements so pension is frozen. The point being made is reciprocal agreements.
See, not everything has to be reciprocated.
#23
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
That sounds like a technicality. You mentioned legal problems. We always hear of EU employment law. Is that a fiction then?
If the EU passes something that says citizens of a former EU nation may retain status as a citizen of the EU what is the legal problem?
Is it? I thought you were suggesting that if the EU allows say Brits post Brexit to have the same rights in Europe as before Brexit reciprocal arrangements would mean other EU citizens should have the same rights in Britain.
But I am making the point that there are already rights for EU citizens in the UK that Brits don't have in Europe.
Yes, those are the few I mentioned. Relatively compared to overall numbers.
Well there you go, you agree with me then. Britain makes services and benefits and housing etc available to EU citizens in certain circumstances where those things are not available to Brits in other EU countries in the same circumstances. So not everything is reciprocal.
Yes but you suggested that not being in Europe could cause pensions not to be uprated. There could still be a reciprocal arrangement on that issue or the government could simply say that the pensioners will retain their uprating rights just as this proposal allows EU citizens to retain their rights to EU citizenship.
See, not everything has to be reciprocated.
If the EU passes something that says citizens of a former EU nation may retain status as a citizen of the EU what is the legal problem?
Is it? I thought you were suggesting that if the EU allows say Brits post Brexit to have the same rights in Europe as before Brexit reciprocal arrangements would mean other EU citizens should have the same rights in Britain.
But I am making the point that there are already rights for EU citizens in the UK that Brits don't have in Europe.
Yes, those are the few I mentioned. Relatively compared to overall numbers.
Well there you go, you agree with me then. Britain makes services and benefits and housing etc available to EU citizens in certain circumstances where those things are not available to Brits in other EU countries in the same circumstances. So not everything is reciprocal.
Yes but you suggested that not being in Europe could cause pensions not to be uprated. There could still be a reciprocal arrangement on that issue or the government could simply say that the pensioners will retain their uprating rights just as this proposal allows EU citizens to retain their rights to EU citizenship.
See, not everything has to be reciprocated.
#24
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Excuse me for having referred to them
#25
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 446
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Wrote to my MEP to request her support for this and received the following reply, which indicates (to me) that there is still a chance this will happen ...
Dear XXXX
Thank you for your email about the proposal for British people to have associate European citizenship, even after Britain leaves the European Union (EU).
I am pleased to say that this idea has come from my Liberal colleague, Charles Goerens, and something I completely support. Charles Goerens has tabled amendment to a report in the European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee. The committee is due to vote on the amendment on 21st November, and if approved, all MEPs will vote on the report in December.
This associate membership would provide rights such as the freedom of movement and the right to reside in the EU Member States. Following the reciprocal principle of ‘no taxation without representation’, these associate citizens should pay an annual membership fee directly into the EU budget. In return, EU associate citizens will be able to stand and vote in the European elections on trans-national European lists.
As a passionate pro-European MEP, I am continuing to stand up for the 48% of voters who wished to remain European citizens with all the advantages that this brings, and this amendment would do that. The EU should facilitate associate voluntary EU citizenship for those who, against their will, are being stripped of their European identity. Individual EU associate citizenship could provide a practical solution for UK citizens aggrieved by Brexit.
I understand initial talks with other parliamentarians regarding my amendment have been positive, but there is a long way to go to make this a reality. This proposal from the Liberal Group will ultimately require changes to the EU treaties, but this will be necessary anyway, to remove mention of the UK from the EU treaties after Brexit.
I hope this response is supportive and thank you for writing to me about this important issue. If you feel I can be of any further help on this or any other European matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXX
Dear XXXX
Thank you for your email about the proposal for British people to have associate European citizenship, even after Britain leaves the European Union (EU).
I am pleased to say that this idea has come from my Liberal colleague, Charles Goerens, and something I completely support. Charles Goerens has tabled amendment to a report in the European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee. The committee is due to vote on the amendment on 21st November, and if approved, all MEPs will vote on the report in December.
This associate membership would provide rights such as the freedom of movement and the right to reside in the EU Member States. Following the reciprocal principle of ‘no taxation without representation’, these associate citizens should pay an annual membership fee directly into the EU budget. In return, EU associate citizens will be able to stand and vote in the European elections on trans-national European lists.
As a passionate pro-European MEP, I am continuing to stand up for the 48% of voters who wished to remain European citizens with all the advantages that this brings, and this amendment would do that. The EU should facilitate associate voluntary EU citizenship for those who, against their will, are being stripped of their European identity. Individual EU associate citizenship could provide a practical solution for UK citizens aggrieved by Brexit.
I understand initial talks with other parliamentarians regarding my amendment have been positive, but there is a long way to go to make this a reality. This proposal from the Liberal Group will ultimately require changes to the EU treaties, but this will be necessary anyway, to remove mention of the UK from the EU treaties after Brexit.
I hope this response is supportive and thank you for writing to me about this important issue. If you feel I can be of any further help on this or any other European matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXX
Last edited by noelrosie; Nov 11th 2016 at 10:54 am. Reason: Removal of names
#26
Account Closed
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: Los Montesinos
Posts: 204
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Hope it can work.
One of my issues with Brexit is that my children and grandchildren were born EU citizens now Brexit has taken that away from them - that can't be right
One of my issues with Brexit is that my children and grandchildren were born EU citizens now Brexit has taken that away from them - that can't be right
#27
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
As I said previously not arguing with you or anyone else just pointing out a fact as to why eu residents in uk get free health care in uk. If countries or even the eu come up with health care on reciprocal agreements then great but I can't see anywhere that is being mentioned? Certainly not in this proposal for associated eu membership. From the letter posted from the MP it is simply freedom of movement for which you make an unknown payment to the EU coffers. I would say let's wait and see what happens with this proposal and let's wait and see what comes out of negotiations once or if article 50 is triggered.
#28
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
Clearly if other things work with no reciprocal arrangement then it's nonsense to say something won't work without a reciprocal arrangement.
#29
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
That's because it wasn't mentioned in the proposal. I mentioned it as just one of a few examples of a lack of reciprocal arrangements as a counter to the point made against the proposal on the basis it couldn't work UIbecause there was no reciprocal part to it.
Clearly if other things work with no reciprocal arrangement then it's nonsense to say something won't work without a reciprocal arrangement.
Clearly if other things work with no reciprocal arrangement then it's nonsense to say something won't work without a reciprocal arrangement.
#30
Re: Brits may get opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
In response to my "care to say why it wouldn't work" BritInParis responded "Many, many practical and legal reasons but the main political one is the lack of reciprocity" (my emphasis)
You followed, quoting that part, with "I was just about to post literally the same" so it rather sounded as if a lack of reciprocity was a major obstacle for the proposal with you too.
My apologies if I took that too literally.
You followed, quoting that part, with "I was just about to post literally the same" so it rather sounded as if a lack of reciprocity was a major obstacle for the proposal with you too.
My apologies if I took that too literally.