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Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Old Jul 25th 2006, 3:09 pm
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Default Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Friends of ours have just suffered the most terrible experience, having just moved into their property down the coast, they have had no less than 5 different Debt collectors over the last 4 weeks knocking on their door to collect a total of Euros 150,000 which the previous owners (a couple in their 60s) had borrowed, from 5 different Banks Euros 30,000 each) just prior to handing the original paperwork for the house over.

Our friends went through notaries, solicitors etc.. had searches done, etc.. prior to completing the purchase, and no debts against the property had been found!! Someone didnt do their work properly, and at what cost!

Our friends are liable as the debts are against the property, as they are the new owners. Although they are trying to go legal on this, not too sure if they will succeed and if they wills till be accountable.

What a terrible way to start a new life!

So please, be careful out-there......
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 3:17 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by La Joconde
Friends of ours have just suffered the most terrible experience, having just moved into their property down the coast, they have had no less than 5 different Debt collectors over the last 4 weeks knocking on their door to collect a total of Euros 150,000 which the previous owners (a couple in their 60s) had borrowed, from 5 different Banks Euros 30,000 each) just prior to handing the original paperwork for the house over.

Our friends went through notaries, solicitors etc.. had searches done, etc.. prior to completing the purchase, and no debts against the property had been found!! Someone didnt do their work properly, and at what cost!

Our friends are liable as the debts are against the property, as they are the new owners. Although they are trying to go legal on this, not too sure if they will succeed and if they wills till be accountable.

What a terrible way to start a new life!

So please, be careful out-there......
What a nightmare? That presumably could wipe them out! Were the loans taken against the house then? I'm assuming (stupidly) that the abogado they used must be liable for something under their insurance
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 3:32 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
What a nightmare? That presumably could wipe them out! Were the loans taken against the house then? I'm assuming (stupidly) that the abogado they used must be liable for something under their insurance
Yes they are living a nightmare.

Yes all the loans were taken against the property. Apparently "the sellers" kept the original paperwork till the last minute, having given photocopies to the Abogado, Notaries, etc.. and during the last couple of weeks prior to the completion they (the sellers) took 5 different loans from various Banks.

Hopefully, as you suggest, their Abogado may have some liability.
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 4:09 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by La Joconde
Yes they are living a nightmare.

Yes all the loans were taken against the property. Apparently "the sellers" kept the original paperwork till the last minute, having given photocopies to the Abogado, Notaries, etc.. and during the last couple of weeks prior to the completion they (the sellers) took 5 different loans from various Banks.

Hopefully, as you suggest, their Abogado may have some liability.
A timely warning..in the flurry and excitement of buying overseas we trust our legal team unreservedly. I am sure they must be accountable....surely it isn't standard practice to complete on photocopies ? Let us know the outcome please.
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 4:13 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

its not their fault entirely, but the slow spanish paperwork system. say you take a loan out on the 1st. you sell your house on the 10th. the paperwork for the loan takes 30 days at least to be registered...and the house was signed on the 20th, completed, people move in by the 30th and the loans are still not registered to the house...

its a shame, but it is a big loophole.
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 5:25 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

If the procedure is carried out properly this cannot happen.

The documentation provided by the seller is neither here nor there. The most important is the nota simple from the property registry stating that there are no charges, etc on the property. This is obtained by providing the registration details.

Because the initial nota simple is obtained fairly early on in the process it is obviously possible for the seller to take out a loan or a mortgage between this time and the moment the new escritura is signed.

In order to obviate this possibility the notary will obtain an up to the minute nota simple from the registry minutes before the parties sign the new escritura. This will show if there have been any loans, mortgages or other debts registered against the property in the meantime.

Immediately the escritura has been signed the notary will communicate the transaction to the property registry and it will be registered as an 'asiento de presentaciĂłn' which is valid for 30 days pending the presentation of the actual documentation to the property registry.

At this stage no charges can be made against the property in respect of the previous owners so if they went to the bank the day before and obtained a loan against the property and the bank had not yet registered the provision of the loan with the registry this would not affect the new owners.

This is unlikely to be the case because the notary would have carried out the same procedure at the time the escritura of the mortgage was granted and this would have shown up on the nota simple that he obtained prior to the signing by the new owners.

Having said all that, there are occasions when a nota simple is not obtained in this way for whatever reason and this information will be included in the escritura but the purchaser should be made aware of what is going on and should refuse to sign under these circumstances. I would assume that this is what happened in the case stated but that the purchaser was not, in fact, made aware.

It is the notary's responsibility to inform the parties of the contents of the escritura and if those concerned cannot speak Spanish he must ensure that it is properly translated. Unfortunately, much of the time the escritura is translated by the actual lawyer who is handling the transaction and whose 'looky, looky' English is probably not up to the job. Or, more likely, he just hopes for the best and skips over anything that may be a problem because he just wants to get his fee and move on to the next job.

With a look at the paperwork it should not be too difficult to see why this regrettable incident occurred but proving who is responsible may be rather more difficult.

All lawyers belong to the Illustrious Colegio de Abogados but this is more of a trade association that protects the interests of the lawyers rather than any kind of governing body that can hold them to account.
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 6:05 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Beachcomber
In order to obviate this possibility the notary will obtain an up to the minute nota simple from the registry minutes before the parties sign the new escritura. This will show if there have been any loans, mortgages or other debts registered against the property in the meantime.
If the web site for the REGISTRARS is correct, if you (or your lawyer) register for ongoing information concerning a title, you get an email immediately any change is made ! I wonder if the REGISTRAR completes his end of the online form at the correct time and if this information gets recorded and made available without any delays ! I think there must be many lawyers in Spain who are still not aware of the power of the Internet.
https://www.registradores.org:444/pr.../propiedad.jsp
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 6:47 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Nige, if the notary has done so the details should be recorded in the escritura, both the obtaining of the up to date nota simple AND the fact that he has communicated the transaction to the property registry together with the time and date of doing so and that he has received an acknowledgement to this effect with the registration number of the presentation so that if the registrars office fails to carry out the correct procedures this can be proven beyond doubt.

I am fortunate that the three notaries with whom I have contact on a regular basis are on top of this procedure and do not try to circumvent it. There have been occasions, however, when I have not been in control of the choice of notary, that I have had to insist that the procedure is followed correctly and have literally stood over the notary whilst he carries it out.

Unfortunately most foreigners would not have either the nerve or the linguistic capability to tell the notary how to do his job and most lawyers couldn't care less as long as they get their money.
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 8:36 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

In this specific case, there are 5 loans charged against the property ! Not just one ! Surely, as Beach says, the new Escritura for the purchased property will have the very latest and last minute NOTA SIMPLE showing any charges against the property. The first thing to do is to examine this document and see when it was obtained ! I think the Nota Simple is incorporated within the Escritura document. If it was NOT obtained at the last minute then clearly as Beach says, the Lawyer (toe rag) and the Notary (weasel) are to blame.
A bank lending money would presumably go to the Registro and ensure that the Property was actually owned by the people needing the money and the Registro would enter a charge into the property title - but how long does this take ? Surely to heaven, the bank would not lend money unless it simultaneously enters the charge on the property at the Registro !
But stranger things happen in Spain !
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Old Jul 25th 2006, 9:34 pm
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

I'm just gobsmacked .... what chance have you got when you can be turned over like this by a couple of pensioners!
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Old Jul 26th 2006, 6:57 am
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
I'm just gobsmacked .... what chance have you got when you can be turned over like this by a couple of pensioners!
Even worst, not only pensioners, they were British! They even reduced the sale price by Euros 10,000 to make a quick sale, as they "had to go back to the UK due to family problems"!! OhYeah!

Apparently they had only lived in the property 18 months before selling. Wonder how many times they have done this before.They are most probably lounging around in the Carribeans drinking a cocktail named "Punch On the Run"

This will. I expect, take a while to resolve, if at all, but as soon as I have news I will post a message.

Four years ago, some other friends had a similar situation, but it was for Euros 3,000, when they bought a town house in Torrevieja, from a German couple. In this case, they dealt privately with the sellers, we did try to say "be careful", when they said they were actually going to pay for the property in cash, to avoid paying tax!!

How many people are tempted to save money, and at what cost eventually!!
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Old Jul 26th 2006, 7:06 am
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
I'm just gobsmacked .... what chance have you got when you can be turned over like this by a couple of pensioners!
Hi,We have just lost five thousand Euros to a dubious lawyer,and trying to get the money or even some of it back is difficult to say the least;I've been advised to report him to the colligio adbogados,but I don't hold out much hope.I think of this person and get pretty pissed off.But after reading horror stories like this,well!
Perhaps owners can appreciate why people want to rent until they find their feet.

Last edited by Galli; Jul 26th 2006 at 7:09 am. Reason: spelling
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Old Jul 26th 2006, 7:27 am
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Galli
Hi,We have just lost five thousand Euros to a dubious lawyer,and trying to get the money or even some of it back is difficult to say the least;I've been advised to report him to the colligio adbogados,but I don't hold out much hope.I think of this person and get pretty pissed off.But after reading horror stories like this,well!
Perhaps owners can appreciate why people want to rent until they find their feet.
Curious.....how did you find this lawyer ?? Was he recommended by an estate agent??? The problem often is that things are done so casually in Spain.. we paid our lawyer in cash on the day of signing, and he asked if we would like a receipt.. we did, so he just wrote one out on a blank piece of paper.
How did you lose the money?? Posting info helps others to ask questions and avoid the same pitfalls. I hope you get it back.
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Old Jul 26th 2006, 8:15 am
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

How about the names of these thieving pensioners, at least to get their names out into the open .......

We traced a scammer from another Spanish forum to Turkey and outed him on forums he was using there, hence stopping him ripping off other people there. We passed all the info we had to the "victims" so they had the option of taking it to the police
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Old Jul 26th 2006, 8:58 am
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Default Re: Beware when buying a Re-Sale Property in Spain

Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
How about the names of these thieving pensioners, at least to get their names out into the open .......

We traced a scammer from another Spanish forum to Turkey and outed him on forums he was using there, hence stopping him ripping off other people there. We passed all the info we had to the "victims" so they had the option of taking it to the police
But how would we know if they were their real names and not aliases?
Did anyone see the BBC news last night ? The item about the alleged corrupt cop involved in hampering the Stephen Lawrence investigation now running a bar on the CDS. The whole programme is on tonight.
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