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Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Old Apr 25th 2021, 6:37 am
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Default Becoming resident ...then non resident.

We are having a family think tank.
The situation is the family run business in the UK employs 2 sisters each part time. Both are homeowners and well under pension age.
Both sisters would ideally like to spend around six months a year in Spain, but in one long period, instead of 90 days max.

A semi baked plan is being discussed, which consists of each working full time I uk for 6 months, instead of part time for 12.

The main idea being each sister would have the same salary and be able to rent off their properties in uk while living in Spain.⁴
Income requirements are easily met with salary alone.
Both have very substantial savings.

They would of course have to apply for residency as they wish to stay longer than 90 days.

When each one wanted to return to the UK, what would the procedure be, as in residency?
Would they have to give it up and apply to re-instate in the next year on a continuous basis?

Also they would need to look into the UK situation, would it be better or less inconvenient to still be classed as partime employed for 12 months or full time employed on a job share scheme for 6 months.
I presume paying national insurance over 12 months is preferable.
At the moment this is in the thrashing out stage, and due to covid there is no urgency, but is is a shortish term plan.







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Old Apr 25th 2021, 8:17 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by hughandi View Post
We are having a family think tank.
The situation is the family run business in the UK employs 2 sisters each part time. Both are homeowners and well under pension age.
Both sisters would ideally like to spend around six months a year in Spain, but in one long period, instead of 90 days max.

A semi baked plan is being discussed, which consists of each working full time I uk for 6 months, instead of part time for 12.

The main idea being each sister would have the same salary and be able to rent off their properties in uk while living in Spain.⁴
Income requirements are easily met with salary alone.
Both have very substantial savings.

They would of course have to apply for residency as they wish to stay longer than 90 days.

When each one wanted to return to the UK, what would the procedure be, as in residency?
Would they have to give it up and apply to re-instate in the next year on a continuous basis?

Also they would need to look into the UK situation, would it be better or less inconvenient to still be classed as partime employed for 12 months or full time employed on a job share scheme for 6 months.
I presume paying national insurance over 12 months is preferable.
At the moment this is in the thrashing out stage, and due to covid there is no urgency, but is is a shortish term plan.

Basically, it is a case of trying to have your cake and it eat. You can not realistically live in 2 countries equally in each year. First , after Brexit you could only be absent from Spain for 6 months a year with a total period of 10 months over 5 years as UK is now 3rd country. In other words its impossible. Second you fall into a tax problem in that you would be trying to be fiscally resident in only one country whilst effectively having to make tax returns in each to cover up. Thirdly, if you are thinking that you would register on and off once a year that would also not be permitted as you wouldn't be issued a new separate Visa every year. Plus the cost would be high and the process time consuming and would also obviously alert authorities to your bending the rules.

Last edited by Chipmonk; Apr 25th 2021 at 8:21 am.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 9:12 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

the "cake" phrase is becoming tiresome. there is nothing wrong with asking questions, and seeing whether and how rules can be applied correctly given someone's goal.

in theory nothing is stopping one from applying for non lucrative visa every year, for example, coming for 182 days to Spain, then leaving. if one doesn't mind the hassle of it, or having to potentially deal with Spanish tax authorities and proving to them you were not here for more than 183 days.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 9:32 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with trying to work your way legally around the rules the UK visitor to EU now finds themselves in especially if they own property in the EU. However your plan sounds very complex. Its easy enough to take out spanish residency and cancel it but to retain it but in reality remain UK resident legally I can see triggering up issues. At some point surely spanish tax is going to be questioned? If they say the 183 day rule is complied with then there are the other tie breaker rules, if they don't meet tax residency threshold I could see Spain saying OK cancel your residency and you are a tourist with tourism rules. I don't know anything about visa route which has been mentioned.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 9:44 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

That really would be a tangled web
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 10:12 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by yevlondon View Post
the "cake" phrase is becoming tiresome. there is nothing wrong with asking questions, and seeing whether and how rules can be applied correctly given someone's goal.

in theory nothing is stopping one from applying for non lucrative visa every year, for example, coming for 182 days to Spain, then leaving. if one doesn't mind the hassle of it, or having to potentially deal with Spanish tax authorities and proving to them you were not here for more than 183 days.
Plus having to supply proof of Spanish private health insurance when applying for the non lucrative visa - which commits the policyholder to paying the premiums for a full year. Then once the visa is obtained, having to make appointments at the CNP to apply for the TIE and subsequently to collect it. The cost of the non lucrative visa is 516 pounds, plus the fee for a criminal records check.

It all seems a very expensive and time consuming way of spending a six month period in Spain, even if in theory it was possible.

Last edited by Lynn R; Apr 25th 2021 at 10:21 am.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 10:37 am
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

I gained residency many years ago when it was much easier and less traumatic but it still took up a great deal of my time. I would not want to go through that process on a regular basis. Nowadays if is not so straightforward and even more time consuming so I really cannot imagine anyone willingly putting themselves through this process every time they planned to live here. For me the answer is that even if it is doable legally I do not believe that it is practical at all. Their stress levels would increase greatly and by the time they got their residency sorted out it would probably be about half way through their allotted time in Spain. When leaving they would have to go through the process of ending their residency so yet more time dealing with officialdom and the paperwork. Tax and medical care are another consideration which again will not be easily dealt with.

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Old Apr 25th 2021, 1:26 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

While what you propose might conceivably work on paper in practice it would be horribly complicated and difficult to manage on any sort of ongoing basis.

There are multiple points at which it could all fall apart.

e.g.

The Spanish Embassies in UK, through which you would have to apply for your visa's each and every time, would quickly cotton on to what you were doing and possibly refuse to accept repeat applications or else put them in the bottom of the in-tray never to see the light of day.

Each time you arrived in Spain, and within the fist month, you would have to apply for a TIE and residency but then formally relinquish it before you left six months later, that too would be flagged up (simply by your NIE if nothing else) and again repeat applications questioned/refused.

The bottom line here is that since Brexit thousands of people have been, and still are, desperately seeking ways to circumvent the 90/180 day rule but as of yet not a one has reported success, I'm sure FB et al would be alive with it if somebody had.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 1:46 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by hughandi View Post
We are having a family think tank.
The situation is the family run business in the UK employs 2 sisters each part time. Both are homeowners and well under pension age.
Both sisters would ideally like to spend around six months a year in Spain, but in one long period, instead of 90 days max.

A semi baked plan is being discussed, which consists of each working full time I uk for 6 months, instead of part time for 12.

The main idea being each sister would have the same salary and be able to rent off their properties in uk while living in Spain.⁴
Income requirements are easily met with salary alone.
Both have very substantial savings.

They would of course have to apply for residency as they wish to stay longer than 90 days.

When each one wanted to return to the UK, what would the procedure be, as in residency?
Would they have to give it up and apply to re-instate in the next year on a continuous basis?

Also they would need to look into the UK situation, would it be better or less inconvenient to still be classed as partime employed for 12 months or full time employed on a job share scheme for 6 months.
I presume paying national insurance over 12 months is preferable.
At the moment this is in the thrashing out stage, and due to covid there is no urgency, but is is a shortish term plan.
Why not just do 90 days in 90 days out and swap between yourselves?
No issues then with visa's etc.
Depending on where you will have the property, there may even be certain times of the year when you would not want to be there.

I don't know many people who would be interested in renting for 6 months in the UK, most would want long term, so that bit might not work. Unless its a place that would rent for holidays or is in a big city.
OR why not sell both houses, but one that both sisters could share (something nice and big) and then spend the 90 days in Spain.
Neither would be under the others feet as one would be here, one would be in the Uk.

Besides as others have already pointed out, you wont get very far with the resident/non resident route for 6 months. And think of the financial side if nothing else.

I'd happily house share in two locations and I think its a great idea, I might even steal it and see what I can do.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 1:49 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by yevlondon View Post
the "cake" phrase is becoming tiresome. there is nothing wrong with asking questions, and seeing whether and how rules can be applied correctly given someone's goal.

in theory nothing is stopping one from applying for non lucrative visa every year, for example, coming for 182 days to Spain, then leaving. if one doesn't mind the hassle of it, or having to potentially deal with Spanish tax authorities and proving to them you were not here for more than 183 days.
I agree, it's not about having your cake and eating it, my post, as you pointed out is about asking questions.

Thanks for that

I was not asking sbout avoiding paying tax, etc.
I was asking because due to circumstances and covid, a lot of people have been thinking about big life changes, and making the most of it. Priorities have changed for a lot of people.

It maybe time consuming to obtain a non lucrative visa every year, but if it is possible then a day or 2 of paperwork, if that, is not so bad for a 6 month stay in Spain.

Also on the question of cost, not everyone is on a shoestring budget, they can easily show a very healthy bank balance and a princely monthly income, they have private healthcare too in the UK, so they well get it in Spain.

And to pay for a gestor to sort out paperwork is not a deal breaker either.

I was asking about the possibility, not about dodging obligations to either county.

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Old Apr 25th 2021, 2:06 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by hughandi View Post
We are having a family think tank.
The situation is the family run business in the UK employs 2 sisters each part time. Both are homeowners and well under pension age.
Both sisters would ideally like to spend around six months a year in Spain, but in one long period, instead of 90 days max.

A semi baked plan is being discussed, which consists of each working full time I uk for 6 months, instead of part time for 12.

The main idea being each sister would have the same salary and be able to rent off their properties in uk while living in Spain.⁴
Income requirements are easily met with salary alone.
Both have very substantial savings.

They would of course have to apply for residency as they wish to stay longer than 90 days.

When each one wanted to return to the UK, what would the procedure be, as in residency?
Would they have to give it up and apply to re-instate in the next year on a continuous basis?

Also they would need to look into the UK situation, would it be better or less inconvenient to still be classed as partime employed for 12 months or full time employed on a job share scheme for 6 months.
I presume paying national insurance over 12 months is preferable.
At the moment this is in the thrashing out stage, and due to covid there is no urgency, but is is a shortish term plan.

I'm assuming your question is whether you can have residency in Spain, using a NLV, without fiscal residency. I would say yes, your/their plan is feasible but would be expensive each year and you would need to prove that you're out of the country for 184 days. Stamps in your UK passport would help, as would signing off the padron when you leave. Expenditure and payment of taxes in the UK would also help with proof of UK fiscal residency.

You/they would need to pay for private healthcare for each NLV application and show appropriate availability of funds. It's possible that the Spanish consulate could query your 2nd/3rd application, having rescinded your previous residency a number of times.

I do understand where you're coming from and I suspect that Spain may eventually issue a national 6 month visa, which it's entitled to do without impinging on Schengen rules....Who knows.

To continue the cake analogy, this is buying your cake but only eating less than half and then buying another cake and doing the same. A bit wasteful but if you got the money, why not.

Last edited by bolton wanderer; Apr 25th 2021 at 2:43 pm.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 2:17 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by Barriej View Post
Why not just do 90 days in 90 days out and swap between yourselves?
No issues then with visa's etc.
Depending on where you will have the property, there may even be certain times of the year when you would not want to be there.

I don't know many people who would be interested in renting for 6 months in the UK, most would want long term, so that bit might not work. Unless its a place that would rent for holidays or is in a big city.
OR why not sell both houses, but one that both sisters could share (something nice and big) and then spend the 90 days in Spain.
Neither would be under the others feet as one would be here, one would be in the Uk.

Besides as others have already pointed out, you wont get very far with the resident/non resident route for 6 months. And think of the financial side if nothing else.

I'd happily house share in two locations and I think its a great idea, I might even steal it and see what I can do.
Hi Barrie,

Thanks for your suggestions, that's what I would do 90 day and 90 days.

although they are taking about 6 months here and 6 there, what I think is actually meant is to be able to stay longer than 90 days at a time in Schengen. Due to having family in Italy and Portugal 90 day while appearing a long time, it isn't
in the grand scheme of things.

The properties are not to be sold, because they have companies that will rent the houses on a monthly retainer, fully furnished, to accomodate their executives, as hotels have fallen out of favour due to covid. I am not taking about a long term rental, these properties will be serviced.
it's a good opportunity for people who have the right property in the right area, to make good rental income, and fully guaranteed, for as long as they want to. There is a big demand at the moment.


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Old Apr 25th 2021, 2:19 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Originally Posted by bolton wanderer View Post
I'm assuming your question is whether you can have residency in Spain, using a NLV, without fiscal residency. I would say yes, your/they're plan is feasible but would be expensive each year and you would need to prove that you're out of the country for 184 days. Stamps in your UK passport would help, as would signing off the padron when you leave. Expenditure and payment of taxes in the UK would also help with proof of UK fiscal residency.

You/they would need to pay for private healthcare for each NLV application and show appropriate availability of funds. It's possible that the Spanish consulate could query your 2nd/3rd application, having rescinded your previous residency a number of times.

I do understand where you're coming from and I suspect that Spain may eventually issue a national 6 month visa, which it's entitled to do without impinging on Schengen rules....Who knows.

To continue the cake analogy, this is buying your cake but only eating less than half and then buying another cake and doing the same. A bit wasteful but if you got the money, why not.
Exactly......
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 2:30 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

The thing you are missing is that this is an immigration issue not just some legal one. Spain ( just like UK) are selective about who gets visas and like most countries one of the stand out facts is whether you contribute to the country in a financial manner. Despite what some might say , in applying for Spanish residency as a 3rd country citizen you will by default be declaring Spain as your fiscal centre and therefore based on financial requirements be subject to income tax. This means a tax return will be required as a terms of residency. There will not issue you NLV to people who claim to be under 183 days every year. Why would they? You would not be contributing. There is a big difference, however with EU citizens who are not required to reach tax thresholds for residency solely proof they can support themselves. The two things shouldn't be confused. EU citizens can come and go as they please. 3rd country citizens are very much limited.
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Old Apr 25th 2021, 2:59 pm
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Default Re: Becoming resident ...then non resident.

Basically, it doesn't stack up, you need freedom of movement to make that type of plan work.

Any chance of qualifying for an Irish (or other EU) passport?
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