Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Europe > Spain
Reload this Page >

Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Old May 20th 2013, 6:30 am
  #16  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
williams2013 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by lynnxa
why not ask hacienda directly?
Yeah I thought about this and its what I will probably end up doing if I cant get answers elsewhere. Slightly concerned about something going horribly wrong if I start asking questions (although I am not sure what exactly, but this is Spain), and my Spanish is not great which is why I haven't done it so far.
williams2013 is offline  
Old May 20th 2013, 7:30 am
  #17  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
cricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
Yeah I thought about this and its what I will probably end up doing if I cant get answers elsewhere. Slightly concerned about something going horribly wrong if I start asking questions (although I am not sure what exactly, but this is Spain), and my Spanish is not great which is why I haven't done it so far.
Something will only go wrong if you havent done it properly

Personally, with something like the Beckham law I would have contracted an employment lawyer to make sure you were doing everything by the book - the tax gains/losses of not doing it correctly could be huge. Well worth a few hundred euros in the hands of a lawyer
cricketman is offline  
Old May 20th 2013, 10:09 am
  #18  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
williams2013 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by cricketman
Something will only go wrong if you havent done it properly

Personally, with something like the Beckham law I would have contracted an employment lawyer to make sure you were doing everything by the book - the tax gains/losses of not doing it correctly could be huge. Well worth a few hundred euros in the hands of a lawyer
Yes unfortunately I didn't do enough research before coming to Spain and I am now in this predicament. As I said though I have been working here less than 3 months so far so I still have some time to apply for the Beckham law, or to cut all ties and leave the country assuming I am not already a tax resident here.

I have already spent a few hundred euros seeing various lawyers/ accountants, none of whom have given me a satisfactory service, and most of whom have contradicted each other. I would willingly pay well if I could guarantee that the lawyer/ accountant would go out of their way to give me some definite answers.
williams2013 is offline  
Old May 20th 2013, 8:14 pm
  #19  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
cricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
I would willingly pay well if I could guarantee that the lawyer/ accountant would go out of their way to give me some definite answers.
Was the lawyer specialised in employment law?

I use one here in Oviedo who is excellent, but a bit far for you to come

If your Spanish isnt good then you should take a translator too. You cant choose a lawyer based on their English skills
cricketman is offline  
Old May 20th 2013, 8:42 pm
  #20  
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Domino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

I had thought this was no longer relevent but Wiki say
A person cannot invoke the Beckham law if he resided in Spain in the previous 10 years prior to settling in Spain.

He must have relocated to Spain to take up employment under a contract.

Employment duties must be carried out in Spain, although working outside of Spain up to 15% of the time is permitted.

The employer must either be a Spanish company or Spanish entity, or if not Spanish resident then the employer must operate through a permanent establishment in Spain.

The income derived from the employment is not deemed exempt under Spanish income tax law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beckham_law

an in-depth treatise on the +ve's & -ve's of using this is shown at
http://www.advoco.es/advice/8-person...khams-law.html
Domino is offline  
Old May 21st 2013, 9:11 am
  #21  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
williams2013 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Thanks guys, that page on advoco is very useful. Yes i have spoken to accountants, and lawyers all of them apparently specialist in employment law. I think the problem is that they are very used to dealing with a few common recurring expat issues and when I throw them this curve ball they try and fit their usual response to my case. Almost every meeting I have had has started with the following exchange:

Me: Give my background including the fact I am working for a Spanish company on a permanent contract.
Them: Well if you leave before 183 days then you dont have anything to worry about.
Me: What about the clause- 'centre of financial interests'
Them: followed by a load of dribble.

Not one has responded to this last part with an answer backed by any kind of evidence be it a previous case or the relevant section in law. What is even more frustrating is that none of them have even acknowledged that it is an issue/tried to find the answer.

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.

Unfortunately the British guys charge obscene sums compared to the Spanish guys which is why I want to make sure that whoever I chose is going to provide a good service. Of course if someone can really recommend a really good firm in Barcelona who don't have a great level of English then I am not ruling them out. The translator idea is a good one, I hadnt actually thought of that .
williams2013 is offline  
Old May 21st 2013, 9:12 pm
  #22  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,749
cricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond reputecricketman has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
Thanks guys, that page on advoco is very useful. Yes i have spoken to accountants, and lawyers all of them apparently specialist in employment law. I think the problem is that they are very used to dealing with a few common recurring expat issues and when I throw them this curve ball they try and fit their usual response to my case. Almost every meeting I have had has started with the following exchange:

Me: Give my background including the fact I am working for a Spanish company on a permanent contract.
Them: Well if you leave before 183 days then you dont have anything to worry about.
Me: What about the clause- 'centre of financial interests'
Them: followed by a load of dribble.

Not one has responded to this last part with an answer backed by any kind of evidence be it a previous case or the relevant section in law. What is even more frustrating is that none of them have even acknowledged that it is an issue/tried to find the answer.

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.

Unfortunately the British guys charge obscene sums compared to the Spanish guys which is why I want to make sure that whoever I chose is going to provide a good service. Of course if someone can really recommend a really good firm in Barcelona who don't have a great level of English then I am not ruling them out. The translator idea is a good one, I hadnt actually thought of that .
I have two very well respected Spanish lawyers in my family, and I can say that you are talking absolute b*llocks - you are actually coming across as a racist idiot

You cannot contract a British lawyer because you will not find one who is qualified in Spanish law. A Spanish lawyer specialised in Spanish employment law can advise you on any part of it whether they have come across it before or not.

Maybe they are just not giving you the answer you want so you are putting it down to their nationality?
cricketman is offline  
Old May 21st 2013, 9:36 pm
  #23  
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Domino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by cricketman
I have two very well respected Spanish lawyers in my family, and I can say that you are talking absolute b*llocks - you are actually coming across as a racist idiot

You cannot contract a British lawyer because you will not find one who is qualified in Spanish law. A Spanish lawyer specialised in Spanish employment law can advise you on any part of it whether they have come across it before or not.

Maybe they are just not giving you the answer you want so you are putting it down to their nationality?
I have a lawyer in the UK
He is Spanish and specialises in Spanish law for expats and wanna be expats
and has all his Spanish certs
Domino is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 12:55 am
  #24  
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Domino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond reputeDomino has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
Thanks guys, that page on advoco is very useful. Yes i have spoken to accountants, and lawyers all of them apparently specialist in employment law. I think the problem is that they are very used to dealing with a few common recurring expat issues and when I throw them this curve ball they try and fit their usual response to my case. Almost every meeting I have had has started with the following exchange:

Me: Give my background including the fact I am working for a Spanish company on a permanent contract.
Them: Well if you leave before 183 days then you dont have anything to worry about.
Me: What about the clause- 'centre of financial interests'
Them: followed by a load of dribble.

Not one has responded to this last part with an answer backed by any kind of evidence be it a previous case or the relevant section in law. What is even more frustrating is that none of them have even acknowledged that it is an issue/tried to find the answer.

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.

Unfortunately the British guys charge obscene sums compared to the Spanish guys which is why I want to make sure that whoever I chose is going to provide a good service. Of course if someone can really recommend a really good firm in Barcelona who don't have a great level of English then I am not ruling them out. The translator idea is a good one, I hadnt actually thought of that .
have you tried to discuss with Beckham's management team to see if you can get a handle on his lawyer/accountant out here ??
Domino is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 1:18 am
  #25  
¿Dónde estoy?
 
lynnxa's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: my paradise - Jávea
Posts: 13,330
lynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond reputelynnxa has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
Thanks guys, that page on advoco is very useful. Yes i have spoken to accountants, and lawyers all of them apparently specialist in employment law. I think the problem is that they are very used to dealing with a few common recurring expat issues and when I throw them this curve ball they try and fit their usual response to my case. Almost every meeting I have had has started with the following exchange:

Me: Give my background including the fact I am working for a Spanish company on a permanent contract.
Them: Well if you leave before 183 days then you dont have anything to worry about.
Me: What about the clause- 'centre of financial interests'
Them: followed by a load of dribble.

Not one has responded to this last part with an answer backed by any kind of evidence be it a previous case or the relevant section in law. What is even more frustrating is that none of them have even acknowledged that it is an issue/tried to find the answer.

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.

Unfortunately the British guys charge obscene sums compared to the Spanish guys which is why I want to make sure that whoever I chose is going to provide a good service. Of course if someone can really recommend a really good firm in Barcelona who don't have a great level of English then I am not ruling them out. The translator idea is a good one, I hadnt actually thought of that .
I don't get it.....

you're on contract so paying tax & NI - & presumably benefiting from healthcare etc here as a result....

you'll be gone before the 183 day 'limit' - but will have paid income tax while here anyway.....

are you thinking that you shouldn't be paying any tax at all??
lynnxa is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 3:48 am
  #26  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 246
guirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really niceguirijohn is just really nice
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013
Thanks guys, that page on advoco is very useful. Yes i have spoken to accountants, and lawyers all of them apparently specialist in employment law. I think the problem is that they are very used to dealing with a few common recurring expat issues and when I throw them this curve ball they try and fit their usual response to my case. Almost every meeting I have had has started with the following exchange:

Me: Give my background including the fact I am working for a Spanish company on a permanent contract.
Them: Well if you leave before 183 days then you dont have anything to worry about.
Me: What about the clause- 'centre of financial interests'
Them: followed by a load of dribble.

Not one has responded to this last part with an answer backed by any kind of evidence be it a previous case or the relevant section in law. What is even more frustrating is that none of them have even acknowledged that it is an issue/tried to find the answer.

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.

Unfortunately the British guys charge obscene sums compared to the Spanish guys which is why I want to make sure that whoever I chose is going to provide a good service. Of course if someone can really recommend a really good firm in Barcelona who don't have a great level of English then I am not ruling them out. The translator idea is a good one, I hadnt actually thought of that .
Not sure why your centre of economic interests would be in Spain if you are only here temporarily, unless your have property and a family living here. You really need to speak to one of the large Spanish law firms, Garrigues, for example, who act for large companies likely to have employees on secondment.

Whether Garrigues will act for you on a one off basis I have no idea, but their website is in English and you may find useful information there.

http://www.garrigues.com/en/Paginas/Home.aspx
guirijohn is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 7:12 am
  #27  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 378
jennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to beholdjennieJ is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by cricketman
I have two very well respected Spanish lawyers in my family, and I can say that you are talking absolute b*llocks - you are actually coming across as a racist idiot

You cannot contract a British lawyer because you will not find one who is qualified in Spanish law. A Spanish lawyer specialised in Spanish employment law can advise you on any part of it whether they have come across it before or not.

Maybe they are just not giving you the answer you want so you are putting it down to their nationality?
You bandy about the word racist idiot to Brits and other nationalities who are after help like a bit of confetti, to be honest you come across as the most racist person on this forum. Most people are just reporting on real life experiences that they have been exposed to.

I wonder what makes you so special that the mods and admins allow you to call people racist idiots every time the fancy takes you, I would have thought it was potentially libellous.

Just saying !

Last edited by jennieJ; May 22nd 2013 at 7:18 am.
jennieJ is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 9:03 am
  #28  
Banned
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 553
notacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of lightnotacontrathinker is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by williams2013

I think part of the reason that I would prefer to deal with a native English speaker is that there is a very different mentality between Brits and Spaniards. The Spanish are very keen to do things the easy way and kind of hope that nothing bad happens, whereas my past experience with accountants in the UK is that they are far more into the nitty gritty which is exactly what I want.
Despite what Cricketman says, it is an endearing trait of the Spanish. Eveybody can give at least one example of this.

It's best summed up in the example of where the British will say "We'd better not park here, because some b*gger will tell us not to", whereas the Spanish will say "We're going to park here, UNTIL some b*gger tells us not to".

Sorry I can't help you with you tax problem, OP.
notacontrathinker is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 9:06 am
  #29  
Banned
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,081
me me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond reputeme me has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

Originally Posted by notacontrathinker
Despite what Cricketman says, it is an endearing trait of the Spanish. Eveybody can give at least one example of this.

It's best summed up in the example of where the British will say "We'd better not park here, because some b*gger will tell us not to", whereas the Spanish will say "We're going to park here, UNTIL some b*gger tells us not to".

Sorry I can't help you with you tax problem, OP.
True, and I can vouch for that.......
me me is offline  
Old May 22nd 2013, 7:17 pm
  #30  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
williams2013 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Beckham/Non-resident Paradox!

I have spoken to 4 Spanish advisors, 2 of them have asked me to pay in cash so that I wouldn't have to pay tax, I found that quite funny. I have spoken to 2 British guys. One gave me more help than all the Spaniards combined and still declined to offer me his services. The other I will hopefully meet this week. I have also dealt with Brits in the UK and there is a completely different approach to this kind of work. I am not being racist in any way I am just giving my opinion. Also I am more than happy to deal with Spanish firms, I will definitely check out Garrigues, they look very promising.

Yeah I am on a permanent contract. I am Paying the non-resident rate, Not benefitting from healthcare because the firm I work for still hasn't processed the paperwork. Anyway the reason I think that I may be deemed a tax resident even if I dont spend 183 days here is because apparently the Spanish government may view the permanent contract as an intention to stay long term (even if I dont) and therefore may already see me as a tax resident. Clarifying whether or not this is the case seems impossible.

I am very happy to pay tax on my income, and as far as I see it I should be paying the full 25% (which I already pay + contributions) if I want to be considered a non-resident. However I DO NOT want to pay tax to Spain on anything earned before moving to Spain (in Jan), or afterwards which is what I will have to do if I am deemed a tax resident here. I know I would have to pay tax on this income in the UK anyway, but becoming a Spanish tax resident would increase my tax bill dramatically in this case.

Last edited by williams2013; May 22nd 2013 at 7:21 pm.
williams2013 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.