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BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Old Dec 17th 2012, 3:10 pm
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly View Post
Put another record on Cman, that one's wearing a bit thin.

The simple fact is that the markets know who they can trust to meet their obligations and liabilities and who they wouldn't even trust with the bairns piggy bank.
Yep, the markets are always right...

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Old Dec 17th 2012, 3:13 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
That isnt true at all, Spain's problems come mainly from two areas

1. Up till 2011 it had access to cheap credit, but as of recently, Spain cannot refinance its debt cheaply
fixed that for you.

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
2. 50% of government revenue in 2007 came from property sales tax. Now that house sales are at rock bottom, that takes away a huge amount of money which is needed to fund education, health etc etc
According to the OECD, looks like about 10% or less

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
The Spanish government bodies have spent as if the economy was always going to grow, when it hasnt grown in 5 years. That is why there is no money left.
Clearly the solution is to spend more, as you have so oft unwittingly suggested in the past.

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
By the way, exactly the same thing has happened in the UK and US with just one very important difference. They can refinance their debt much more cheaply on the markets - and can simply print money off on the printing press to pay public employees. Which is why even with all the Euros problems it is still holding up against the dollar and pound.
"Holding up" is exactly the problem, and precisely why the Euro isn't working (for Spain anyway). It TOO FRIGGIN EXPENSIVE for Spain and most of the Mediterranean states.

Even this report points out that the usual result is a devaluation of the currency. Unfortunately, a Spanish Euro cannot be worth less than a German Euro, so it's the Spanish people who must bear the burdens of the Eurocrats determination to keep the Euro intact.

I may not agree with all of Rajoy's policies, but I tend to support his holding Spain's economy as a trump card in the face of the Eurocracy who demands giving up Spain's autonomy to bureaucrats, who've yet to prove any more competency at anything, let alone autocratic management of an economy that it desperately needs in order to keep its blessed Eurozone intact.

There is no "happy" solution, but I think there is some point where imposed austerity and dictatorial economic management by a distant, virtual autocracy becomes a worse option than simply leaving the Euro.

If Rajoy plays his cards right, I believe there should be some pretty good compromises from the powers that be. Better to have Spain IN under good terms for Spain, than to have Spain OUT, in which case, everybody loses, but Spain eventually wins.
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 3:22 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
Wembly stadium cost a billion euros and the Millenium Dome cost almost that much, at least they both are regularly used and probably make money
Perhaps not the best examples if comparing with Spain - Wembley was built using private money, albeit borrowed. The Dome was a white elephant that cost the taxpayers close on £1b and was eventually given away to O2 to redevelop it. Prior to giving it away, the Dome was costing over £1m a month in running/maintenance costs
What struck me in the programme was that very little blame was placed on the Spanish Govmnt, they even said the national government was very well run, it was the local government bodies that ran up massive debts
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 4:19 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by missile View Post
You seem to have missed the interview with the pharmacist who had not been paid for months wringing her hands because she had no cash to buy medicines for those suffering with angina, hypertension and diabetes? The piece about makeshift schools made out of shipping containers was more BBC left wing propoganda?
No I did not miss that section but am sure when asked she mentioned only blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes tablets which happen to be among the cheapest drugs available in Spain costing just a couple of euros for a months supply.

In my local pharmacy she is holding much less stock than before and when patients prescriptions need filling they are told to go a few days before and then she orders them in for delivery the next day.

As for the two container schools whats the big deal?? containers are being used now in all sorts of situations worldwide, indeed Lincoln University in the UK use them for student accommodation.
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 4:22 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by cricketman View Post
Yep, the markets are always right...

Famous last words
Shucks, if they'd all just listened to you in the first place, we'd now be living wonderfully easy and carefree lives (provided by the fair and compassionate state, of course), all holding hands and singing "we are the world".

No doubt someday when the average IQ exceeds 1000, you'll be considered a prophet in the history books.
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 5:03 pm
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by whitelinen View Post
No I did not miss that section but am sure when asked she mentioned only blood pressure, cholesterol and diabetes tablets which happen to be among the cheapest drugs available in Spain costing just a couple of euros for a months supply.

In my local pharmacy she is holding much less stock than before and when patients prescriptions need filling they are told to go a few days before and then she orders them in for delivery the next day.

As for the two container schools whats the big deal?? containers are being used now in all sorts of situations worldwide, indeed Lincoln University in the UK use them for student accommodation.
Maybe you should view it again. It doesn't matter what you or I think. The Valencian residents think it is a big deal.
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

What I found a little tawdry was the spectacular lack of coverage of the almost dedicated corruption amongst all levels of government from the higher echelons down to the local adjuntamento’s which accounted for the misappropriation of billions of Euros... Included in the theft of this money were many small and medium sized companies in the public sector who in cahoots with these fraudsters have deprived a generation from the possibility of living a normal life.

It was a free for all for a few!
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 5:34 pm
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by eddieb View Post
Perhaps not the best examples if comparing with Spain - Wembley was built using private money, albeit borrowed. The Dome was a white elephant that cost the taxpayers close on £1b and was eventually given away to O2 to redevelop it. Prior to giving it away, the Dome was costing over £1m a month in running/maintenance costs
What struck me in the programme was that very little blame was placed on the Spanish Govmnt, they even said the national government was very well run, it was the local government bodies that ran up massive debts
Interesting point about the Dome. It's said that O2 turned it around and made it a success. The guy in charge of O2 at that time - a guy called Matthew Key who's now head of Telefonica Digital. One to watch
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Old Dec 17th 2012, 11:00 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

A lot of what has been reported in the UK and US media about the crisis featured strongly on Spanish news reports this evening.
I don't think there was any resentment about it, because the reports all seemed very accurate and in accord with their own views.

There was one interesting interview with a Benidorm hotel manager who was extremely irate that although his large hotel had been fully booked and doing excellent business for many months previously, no money had been forthcoming to pay the staffs wages.
He was understandably very perplexed regarding where all the incoming funds had disappeared to and gave the impression that he suspected that corruption must still be continuing much as before.
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 8:33 am
  #40  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by The Beast View Post
What I found a little tawdry was the spectacular lack of coverage of the almost dedicated corruption amongst all levels of government from the higher echelons down to the local adjuntamento’s which accounted for the misappropriation of billions of Euros... Included in the theft of this money were many small and medium sized companies in the public sector who in cahoots with these fraudsters have deprived a generation from the possibility of living a normal life.

It was a free for all for a few!
I don't think any blame for lack of coverage of the corruption etc can be placed at the door of Paul Mason & the BBC. I'm confident, being familiar with Mason's journalistic work and reputation, that he would have made great efforts to dig deeper and higher, but he would I suspect, have faced a wall of silence and non-cooperation from many organisations and individuals.
On a separate but perhaps related point, is the BBC TV programme 'Watchdog'. On the infrequent occasions I watch it, I always think how and if such a programme would survive on Spanish TV!
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 9:25 am
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by Biffta View Post
I don't think any blame for lack of coverage of the corruption etc can be placed at the door of Paul Mason & the BBC. I'm confident, being familiar with Mason's journalistic work and reputation, that he would have made great efforts to dig deeper and higher, but he would I suspect, have faced a wall of silence and non-cooperation from many organisations and individuals.
If as you say he would have made great efforts to dig deeper and was met with a wall of silence why not include that in the piece and state that despite efforts to contact x and y no response was forthcoming?
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 9:47 am
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by Biffta View Post
I don't think any blame for lack of coverage of the corruption etc can be placed at the door of Paul Mason & the BBC.
And the programme was only an hour long, would need to be a series if they were going to include corruption. Saw the Panorama programme last night about the reclusive Barclays twins, they didn't pull many punches there. Worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 10:31 am
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Usual old stuff, food banks with expensive branded goods, regular meat eater who can only afford meat once a month......

There was a UK fuel poverty story on Sky News yesterday. Chap moaning he couldn't afford his heating bills, yet indoors with just a T-shirt on!!
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 11:05 am
  #44  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by derek500 View Post
Usual old stuff, food banks with expensive branded goods, regular meat eater who can only afford meat once a month......
Actually, the guy said he could only afford to eat beef once a month, the BBC translators got it wrong, wasnt exactly difficult, I wonder whether it was to make the situation seem worse than it was?

Saying that, the programme seemed pretty fair, there was too much emphasis on the Brits, but then again it is for the BBC

Talking about budget deficits, there is some interesting stuff being written about the US' "fiscal cliff". The US' budget deficit is worse than Greece's every year - makes Spain's numbers look healthy!

And there is no "wall of silence" from the important people, Jordi Evole regularly interviews and provokes them about everything they have done wrong/corruption etc. Paul Mason is a very good journo, but I dont know why he was concentrating on a few down and outs in an inconsequencial little town. It would be like interviewing people from Middlesborough to understand why the UK banks crashed in 2008

Last edited by cricketman; Dec 18th 2012 at 11:08 am.
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Old Dec 18th 2012, 11:11 am
  #45  
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Default Re: BBC2 The Great Spanish Crash

Originally Posted by whitelinen View Post
If as you say he would have made great efforts to dig deeper and was met with a wall of silence why not include that in the piece and state that despite efforts to contact x and y no response was forthcoming?
I can't say he did make the efforts only that I suspect he did, knowing his reputation. Let's not forget however, he & the crew were working in a foreign country and will have relied upon Spanish interpreters and media to facilitate the programme making and those willing to appear in it.
Again I suspect there is no custom or history of the Spanish media challenging authority and certainly no 'doorstepping' of politicians and others as is commonplace in the UK, so any cooperation may have been somewhat 'controlled'.
Others with a far better knowledge of the Spanish culture will perhaps put me right on this.
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