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Bárcenas Tells All

Bárcenas Tells All

Old Jul 9th 2013, 10:23 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

There's a system here - el cable, el cuñadísmo, el nepotísmo, el enchufe. Everyone in Spain has a cousin, an ex-lover, a brother, an aunt, a schoolfriend... who are now in the Guardia, a doctor in a social security hospital, a gestor, a lawyer, a politician, a mayor, an invigilator, a notary... and so it goes on. A foreigner, of course, has none of this network to rely on. Way it goes.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 11:12 am
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by Lenox
There's a system here - el cable, el cuñadísmo, el nepotísmo, el enchufe. Everyone in Spain has a cousin, an ex-lover, a brother, an aunt, a schoolfriend... who are now in the Guardia, a doctor in a social security hospital, a gestor, a lawyer, a politician, a mayor, an invigilator, a notary... and so it goes on. A foreigner, of course, has none of this network to rely on. Way it goes.
Furthermore the official political system is corrupt anyway, since there is no accountability. Rajoy lost 2 general elections, the first after attempting to block media coverage of evidence suggesting that ETA might not have been responsible for 11 M. But so what? Like Rubalcalba now, he didn't really lose anything from being in opposition, he still picked up his paycheck (along with the other checks). Nobody had the power to force him to resign, so he didn't. In fact there's nothing to stop the PSOE and the PP from coming to some covert agreement whereby they take it in turn to be in power. The whole system is a façade with the electorate being duped into thinking that just because they get to vote every 4 years they live in some kind of democracy. All they vote for is whose turn it is next, the PP or the PSOE.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 7:37 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by jennieJ
What's the UK bit to so with this!

You seem totally unable to post without mentioning the UK even when no one else does on a topic
Glad I don't read him (life's too short to keep up with his prodigious output!), but I see he's often accused of starting the proverbial p-----g contest. You're right of course, and if anyone seriously believes the UK is anywhere near as corrupt as Spain, they are in denial. The Spanish themselves seemed to accept it as part of their daily lives, but even they are becoming more vocal, fed up with struggling along, whilst the politicos are all lining their pockets.
http://www.abc.es/espana/20130709/ab...307090854.html

"Los tribunales españoles investigan 1.661 casos de corrupción política y financiera.
Corrupción en España: Más de 300 políticos españoles están imputados"
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by Lenox
There's a system here - el cable, el cuñadísmo, el nepotísmo, el enchufe. Everyone in Spain has a cousin, an ex-lover, a brother, an aunt, a schoolfriend... who are now in the Guardia, a doctor in a social security hospital, a gestor, a lawyer, a politician, a mayor, an invigilator, a notary... and so it goes on. A foreigner, of course, has none of this network to rely on. Way it goes.
You forgot "amiguismo". You´re right, that is the way it goes, and therein lies the problem, nobody has a problem in bending/breaking the rules for friends, relatives etc. It's second nature, and if being a friend is not enough, you give them a brown envelope, and voilá, you're in.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 8:13 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Say what you will about the fluffy bunnies in Brussels, but being in all practical ways, completely removed from Spanish culture, history, and mindset, their idealist platform provokes the ambition to destroy all forms of corruption which they themselves are unable to benefit from, and so there's lots of pressure to radically cut the levels of Spanish corruption and nepotism which is so deeply embedded in the culture here. That's arguably a good thing, and perhaps helps explain why so many are going to jail now.

Unfortunately, their simplistic view is to just arrest anyone who engages in it, which, on the surface seems perfectly reasonable, but is unfortunately, terribly short-sighted. The problem is, it's now a part of life here, and virtually everyone engages in it - from the top politicians, to the lowly shopkeeper that doesn't bother to charge IVA for their regular customers paying cash, to the guy who is officially unemployed and works black for cash. Simply making it more complicated and more illegal and sending everyone to jail just makes them trust government even less, and only compels them to find new ways to get around it.

If you really want to stop it, we'll need to do the hardest thing: Make government more trustable. That's a very tall order, I realise, but if government would be more inclined to serve the public instead of victimise it, I think we'd see a slow, but steady increase in trust, and more willingness to live by the rules.

But that's where the fluffy bunnies fail the test. The objective too oft appears to be to simply make everything harder - increase taxes, increase bureaucracy, impose more regulations, make labour more complicated and expensive, increase penalties, and arrest anyone who goes foul of it. That's not the way to get people to agree with you. It's how you incite public unrest, and fuel the black market.

If I had any say (I don't), I'd tell the fluffy bunnies to stuff it, radically cut taxes, offer huge tax breaks to businesses who employ people, make employment easy and with very low risk - enabling businesses to get the talent they need at the current market price (and start a bidding war for talent), and invest a lot into a complete change of government culture to instill a sense of pride in their work, insist that their jobs depend on delivering the best and most efficient services to the Spanish public (and make it clear that the public is indeed their employer). Raises and promotions are linked directly to the success of Spain, not some guarantee of lifetime employment and salaries just because they farted around in the office for 2 decades, building their own little fiefdoms.

How would I pay for it? Well, borrow it, because in about 5 years, the economy would be booming, tax collections would go astronomical, because people and businesses would actually be paying tax, and spending would go down as a result of the huge drop in unemployment, and the black market would no longer net the best results.

Whilst there's obviously a lot more to it than that, I'm certain those things alone would immediately take Spain on an entirely different course towards prosperity and make it much more beneficial to live above the table rather than in the black - meanwhile the fluffy bunnies in Brussels would no doubt be having kittens.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 8:55 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by amideislas
Say what you will about the fluffy bunnies in Brussels, but being in all practical ways, completely removed from Spanish culture, history, and mindset, their idealist platform provokes the ambition to destroy all forms of corruption which they themselves are unable to benefit from, and so there's lots of pressure to radically cut the levels of Spanish corruption and nepotism which is so deeply embedded in the culture here. That's arguably a good thing, and perhaps helps explain why so many are going to jail now.

Unfortunately, their simplistic view is to just arrest anyone who engages in it, which, on the surface seems perfectly reasonable, but is unfortunately, terribly short-sighted. The problem is, it's now a part of life here, and virtually everyone engages in it - from the top politicians, to the lowly shopkeeper that doesn't bother to charge IVA for their regular customers paying cash, to the guy who is officially unemployed and works black for cash. Simply making it more complicated and more illegal and sending everyone to jail just makes them trust government even less, and only compels them to find new ways to get around it.

If you really want to stop it, we'll need to do the hardest thing: Make government more trustable. That's a very tall order, I realise, but if government would be more inclined to serve the public instead of victimise it, I think we'd see a slow, but steady increase in trust, and more willingness to live by the rules.

But that's where the fluffy bunnies fail the test. The objective too oft appears to be to simply make everything harder - increase taxes, increase bureaucracy, impose more regulations, make labour more complicated and expensive, increase penalties, and arrest anyone who goes foul of it. That's not the way to get people to agree with you. It's how you incite public unrest, and fuel the black market.

If I had any say (I don't), I'd tell the fluffy bunnies to stuff it, radically cut taxes, offer huge tax breaks to businesses who employ people, make employment easy and with very low risk - enabling businesses to get the talent they need at the current market price (and start a bidding war for talent), and invest a lot into a complete change of government culture to instill a sense of pride in their work, insist that their jobs depend on delivering the best and most efficient services to the Spanish public (and make it clear that the public is indeed their employer). Raises and promotions are linked directly to the success of Spain, not some guarantee of lifetime employment and salaries just because they farted around in the office for 2 decades, building their own little fiefdoms.

How would I pay for it? Well, borrow it, because in about 5 years, the economy would be booming, tax collections would go astronomical, because people and businesses would actually be paying tax, and spending would go down as a result of the huge drop in unemployment, and the black market would no longer net the best results.

Whilst there's obviously a lot more to it than that, I'm certain those things alone would immediately take Spain on an entirely different course towards prosperity and make it much more beneficial to live above the table rather than in the black - meanwhile the fluffy bunnies in Brussels would no doubt be having kittens.
Although this post is of course a massive generalisation and over-simplified (which it has to be to fit an explanation into a few paragraphs), I do pretty much agree.

Brussels has handcuffs on Spain, the country is being held over a barrel and can only do what Merkel and Co want. Yes tax cuts and incentivisation are the way forward, and would cut tax fraud because there would be less to gain from it.

Since IVA has increased to 20% my brother in-law is always asked by his clients to take the IVA off the bill. Initially he refused but then the clients didnt come back. So now he says he hasnt put IVA on but keeps the official invoice and pays the IVA himself, obviously this means he is out of pocket.

He says that everyone sees the politicians stealing, benefits, education, health being cut and people losing their jobs and say that why should I pay IVA when I am not going to benefit from it.

It is short sighted but understandable
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 9:15 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

What suprises me is why all the front page outrage now. Those photos of the ledgers detailing payments to Rajoy et al were first published last year.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 9:27 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by jackytoo
What suprises me is why all the front page outrage now. Those photos of the ledgers detailing payments to Rajoy et al were first published last year.
And they made the front page back then as well

They are back on the front pages now because Barcenas has now admitted that they are his ledgers and he made payments to Rajoy. Previously he denied that they were his.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by Lynn R
I agree that they see this as just an extension of what they know perfectly well goes on at local level, just that the brown envelopes are a lot fatter. A few years ago we saw the Mayor of Alcaucin being taken into court in handcuffs, having been arrested on corruption charges along with other members of his family and local officials. €160,000 was found under his mattress (literally) when his house was searched, and it was reported that not one centimo of his Mayoral salary had been withdrawn from the bank in years. People were applauding in the street, and initially we thought they were pleased because he'd got his comeuppance, but not a bit of it, they were calling out supportive messages, and nobody at all was pelting him with rotten eggs. Of course his political opponents tried to make hay out of it, just as his Party supporters would have if it had been a member of the opposing party at fault.
Was just the same in Marbella when Gil was arrested. Coachloads of supporters travelled to the prison to demonstrate outside. His party was still voted in again.
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Old Jul 9th 2013, 11:54 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by amideislas
Say what you will about the fluffy bunnies in Brussels, but being in all practical ways, completely removed from Spanish culture, history, and mindset, their idealist platform provokes the ambition to destroy all forms of corruption which they themselves are unable to benefit from, and so there's lots of pressure to radically cut the levels of Spanish corruption and nepotism which is so deeply embedded in the culture here. That's arguably a good thing, and perhaps helps explain why so many are going to jail now.

Unfortunately, their simplistic view is to just arrest anyone who engages in it, which, on the surface seems perfectly reasonable, but is unfortunately, terribly short-sighted. The problem is, it's now a part of life here, and virtually everyone engages in it - from the top politicians, to the lowly shopkeeper that doesn't bother to charge IVA for their regular customers paying cash, to the guy who is officially unemployed and works black for cash. Simply making it more complicated and more illegal and sending everyone to jail just makes them trust government even less, and only compels them to find new ways to get around it.

If you really want to stop it, we'll need to do the hardest thing: Make government more trustable. That's a very tall order, I realise, but if government would be more inclined to serve the public instead of victimise it, I think we'd see a slow, but steady increase in trust, and more willingness to live by the rules.

But that's where the fluffy bunnies fail the test. The objective too oft appears to be to simply make everything harder - increase taxes, increase bureaucracy, impose more regulations, make labour more complicated and expensive, increase penalties, and arrest anyone who goes foul of it. That's not the way to get people to agree with you. It's how you incite public unrest, and fuel the black market.

If I had any say (I don't), I'd tell the fluffy bunnies to stuff it, radically cut taxes, offer huge tax breaks to businesses who employ people, make employment easy and with very low risk - enabling businesses to get the talent they need at the current market price (and start a bidding war for talent), and invest a lot into a complete change of government culture to instill a sense of pride in their work, insist that their jobs depend on delivering the best and most efficient services to the Spanish public (and make it clear that the public is indeed their employer). Raises and promotions are linked directly to the success of Spain, not some guarantee of lifetime employment and salaries just because they farted around in the office for 2 decades, building their own little fiefdoms.

How would I pay for it? Well, borrow it, because in about 5 years, the economy would be booming, tax collections would go astronomical, because people and businesses would actually be paying tax, and spending would go down as a result of the huge drop in unemployment, and the black market would no longer net the best results.

Whilst there's obviously a lot more to it than that, I'm certain those things alone would immediately take Spain on an entirely different course towards prosperity and make it much more beneficial to live above the table rather than in the black - meanwhile the fluffy bunnies in Brussels would no doubt be having kittens.
I concur with both the excellent analysis and the suggested solution, and most Spanish people probably agree as well, but there is a major stumbling block which has been present throughout Spanish history.

Buried deep within the Spanish psyche is a stubborn refusal to accept ever being wrong, it is against the macho concept of the loudest shouter being right, and Spanish women have it as well, a lot of them growl when talking normally - the prettiest and tiniest newsreaders always surprise me when they start growling rapidly.

Apologies and rebates are not common in Spain, not from the top of the government, nor from Hacienda, not from Telefonica, and not from the Spanish shopkeeper who has inadvertently overcharged you.

I watched such a confrontation this morning. A Spanish waitress gave a Spaniard a bill for two tostados and he said he only had one. It nearly came to blows. I kept quiet but I had watched the man eat two of them, the same as I did.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 4:40 am
  #26  
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

I remember our local mayor, he was a school teacher he earned then around 600E a month. He was elected to be mayor on a salary of 450E a month. He had a 20 year old utility car and lived with his mum. Within a year He had a new Alfa and lived in a large villa. Within His term he came to own a handful of villas and even more apartments. It's truly amazing what could be done with 450E a month before tax 15 yrs ago. I wish I knew his secret, I earned more than double but couldn't get a decent mortgage.
BTW this was a village with a little over 1000 inhabitants.

Last edited by Maybe1day; Jul 10th 2013 at 4:42 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 7:38 am
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by jennieJ
What's the UK bit to so with this!

You seem totally unable to post without mentioning the UK even when no one else does on a topic
BECAUSE SPAIN ISNT THE ONLY PLACE THAT HAS A CORRUPTION PROBLEM

YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT BLIGHTY IS SO BLEEDING FANTASTIC THEN GO BACK TO IT WHERE YOU CAN SIT IN DENIAL AS YOU ARE DOING IN SPAIN BUT COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW WRONG IT IS HERE

PITA
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 7:40 am
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by agoreira
Glad I don't read him (life's too short to keep up with his prodigious output!), but I see he's often accused of starting the proverbial p-----g contest. You're right of course, and if anyone seriously believes the UK is anywhere near as corrupt as Spain, they are in denial. The Spanish themselves seemed to accept it as part of their daily lives, but even they are becoming more vocal, fed up with struggling along, whilst the politicos are all lining their pockets.
http://www.abc.es/espana/20130709/ab...307090854.html

"Los tribunales españoles investigan 1.661 casos de corrupción política y financiera.
Corrupción en España: Más de 300 políticos españoles están imputados"
ANOTHER PITA IN DENIAL
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 9:31 am
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by Domino
BECAUSE SPAIN ISNT THE ONLY PLACE THAT HAS A CORRUPTION PROBLEM

YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT BLIGHTY IS SO BLEEDING FANTASTIC THEN GO BACK TO IT WHERE YOU CAN SIT IN DENIAL AS YOU ARE DOING IN SPAIN BUT COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW WRONG IT IS HERE

PITA
Don´t you think you are taking this whole forum thingy far too seriously?

You will blow a gasket if you don´t chill out.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: Bárcenas Tells All

Originally Posted by amideislas
Say what you will about the fluffy bunnies in Brussels, but being in all practical ways, completely removed from Spanish culture, history, and mindset, their idealist platform provokes the ambition to destroy all forms of corruption which they themselves are unable to benefit from, and so there's lots of pressure to radically cut the levels of Spanish corruption and nepotism which is so deeply embedded in the culture here. That's arguably a good thing, and perhaps helps explain why so many are going to jail now.

Unfortunately, their simplistic view is to just arrest anyone who engages in it, which, on the surface seems perfectly reasonable, but is unfortunately, terribly short-sighted. The problem is, it's now a part of life here, and virtually everyone engages in it - from the top politicians, to the lowly shopkeeper that doesn't bother to charge IVA for their regular customers paying cash, to the guy who is officially unemployed and works black for cash. Simply making it more complicated and more illegal and sending everyone to jail just makes them trust government even less, and only compels them to find new ways to get around it.

If you really want to stop it, we'll need to do the hardest thing: Make government more trustable. That's a very tall order, I realise, but if government would be more inclined to serve the public instead of victimise it, I think we'd see a slow, but steady increase in trust, and more willingness to live by the rules.

But that's where the fluffy bunnies fail the test. The objective too oft appears to be to simply make everything harder - increase taxes, increase bureaucracy, impose more regulations, make labour more complicated and expensive, increase penalties, and arrest anyone who goes foul of it. That's not the way to get people to agree with you. It's how you incite public unrest, and fuel the black market.

If I had any say (I don't), I'd tell the fluffy bunnies to stuff it, radically cut taxes, offer huge tax breaks to businesses who employ people, make employment easy and with very low risk - enabling businesses to get the talent they need at the current market price (and start a bidding war for talent), and invest a lot into a complete change of government culture to instill a sense of pride in their work, insist that their jobs depend on delivering the best and most efficient services to the Spanish public (and make it clear that the public is indeed their employer). Raises and promotions are linked directly to the success of Spain, not some guarantee of lifetime employment and salaries just because they farted around in the office for 2 decades, building their own little fiefdoms.

How would I pay for it? Well, borrow it, because in about 5 years, the economy would be booming, tax collections would go astronomical, because people and businesses would actually be paying tax, and spending would go down as a result of the huge drop in unemployment, and the black market would no longer net the best results.

Whilst there's obviously a lot more to it than that, I'm certain those things alone would immediately take Spain on an entirely different course towards prosperity and make it much more beneficial to live above the table rather than in the black - meanwhile the fluffy bunnies in Brussels would no doubt be having kittens.
not bad as a business critique, as a way forward, of internally generating business rather than trying to buy it as the Govt seems to think it can with new projects - which are incidentally supported by EU funding. (so all the other countries that are also in need or not are also contributing).

but what if - after say 2 years of no reins the horse is still going round the same bald patch, the same people are contributing but also the same people are still working on the black
and what does a shopkeeper who has an IVA special price for his customers do if he wants to go back to the proper price (after all how long is his "discount" sustainable.?) will his customers want to pay a 21% increase ??

but as I say, it could be a way forward - just as with all proposals there are wrinkles
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