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AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Old Mar 29th 2010, 6:56 am
  #31  
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Followed Veleta´s link and this came up which gives details of the original judgement.

http://www.jerezserviciosempresarial...0AUTONOMO.html

"Sala de lo Social, sentencia de 29 de octubre de 1997. Rec nº 406/1997"

Google the above to get more info.
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Old Mar 29th 2010, 8:51 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Originally Posted by billgates
What's to stop anyone of below pension age from claiming they are autonomo just to get free Spanish health care?
If you weren't entitled to the free health care before, then you wouldn't get if after. Nothing would change.
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Old Mar 29th 2010, 9:34 pm
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

A really interesting thread for people put off the autonomo by the high fixed cost. Goodness knows Spain needs more people to start businesses legally and I’ve always thought the fixed social security costs were discouraging enterprise.

The minimum wage for 2010 is 7,599.60, the “salario minimo” or “salario minimo interprofesional” (“SMI”). It is most commonly referred to as an amount per month, currently 633,30, and is changed annually by the Bank of Spain.

However do not go away with the impression that this some kind of threshold below which social security is not payable. It’s a bit more subtle than that. The law says that regular autonomos pay social security at the prescribed level regardless of income.

The only exception is when someone does not routinely earn money from the activity they got paid for. Say you were a pensioner who got paid a couple of times for oddjobs – it would be absurd to expect you to sign up for soc sec. However the problem comes defining such examples : is it based on how little you earn or how infrequently you earn or both?

A 1997 case considered the example of housewives who earned extra money as insurance agents, some earning much more than others. The court concluded that it was reasonable to use the minimum wage as a guide, in the absence of other citeria, to decide which housewives had to sign up to autonomo social security. Since then it has become something of a benchmark.

You can see from all this that the exception is not really designed for “full time” autonomos even if they don’t earn much when starting out or have a patch of low earnings. In practice some people use it like that though. EG when starting out, say you don’t intend your work to be “de forma habitual” only signing up for soc sec later when you have a decent level of income.

However I don’t think you could use the exception if other factors showed you were full time e.g you had an office/shop. Also I think the monthly min wage of 633,30 would be the key measure i.e. if you say you are not a regular autonomo but start invoicing 1.000 a month I don’t think you could wait until month 8 (i.e. when over the annual min wage) before signing up for soc sec. I am also pretty sure you can’t duck in and out of the system as and when earnings fall below either the monthly or annual minimum wage.
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Old Mar 29th 2010, 11:33 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Thanks for the valuable info - I'm finding many people, including myself, really struggle with the costs of being self-employed in Spain - I pay €251.70 a month.

In the UK I was paying just £12 a month.

No wonder so many workers in Spain are 'on the black'.
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 6:20 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

I talked to a friend who is a gestoria about this and she says this is not for Autonomos and also doing a "darse de alta" in Hacienda shows intent to be a habitual worker and requires inscription in the Social Security. This means without paying Social Security it is not possible to legally issue any sort of invoices. She also said this just is for people who might do the occasional babysitting job or suchlike, not for people who are serious about working.

There is also a grey area over whether the person offering the work should be paying a contribution to the State on the worker's behalf. Apparently in a case a few years ago a guy used to do gardening for an old couple, about 10 hours a week. When they told him they didn't need him any more he denounced them for not paying anything on his behalf. Anyway he won the case and they had to pay Social Security payments going back 8 years.
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 7:19 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Originally Posted by Tele Addict
I talked to a friend who is a gestoria about this and she says this is not for Autonomos and also doing a "darse de alta" in Hacienda shows intent to be a habitual worker and requires inscription in the Social Security. This means without paying Social Security it is not possible to legally issue any sort of invoices. She also said this just is for people who might do the occasional babysitting job or suchlike, not for people who are serious about working.

There is also a grey area over whether the person offering the work should be paying a contribution to the State on the worker's behalf. Apparently in a case a few years ago a guy used to do gardening for an old couple, about 10 hours a week. When they told him they didn't need him any more he denounced them for not paying anything on his behalf. Anyway he won the case and they had to pay Social Security payments going back 8 years.
TeleAddict - you should show your gestora the court ruling. It is specifically for autonomos. It refers to the Régimen Especial de Trabajadores Autónomos.

The alta in the Hacienda shows an intent to carry out an ecomonic activity.....but that doesn't have to be habitual.

The alta in the Hacienda requires an alta in the SS too, except in the circumstances previously mentioned. Specifically if your work is not "de forma habitual" and your annual income is less than the annual minimum salary.

As long as you have the alta in the Hacienda you can issue invoices.

The type of work you carry out can be anything as long as it is not "de forma habitual". It extends way beyond just babysitting. For example, a web designer who has just started out in business and only has 2 or 3 new contracts. Or (as per the example in the court ruling) an insurance sales person or freelancing psychologist. However, as Bakeja mentioned, if you have a shop it might be difficult to claim that you are not working de forma habitual.

I know on this forum the stock answer to almost every question is always "go and ask a gestor". Unfortunately if you ask 10 gestores the same question you will probably get 10 different answers. All well meaning I'm sure, but the fact of the matter is that a gestor is not the ultimate authority on any of the questions put before them. If you want the difinitive answer to something you should go direct to the source (bypassing the gestores). In this case that would be:

The wording from the Court ruling
The Seguridad Social (but arm yourself with the wording from the court ruling as it is not in their interest to volunteer the information!).
The Hacienda

Last edited by Veleta; Mar 30th 2010 at 7:36 am.
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 8:38 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Valeta, have you or anyone you know actually done this?
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 9:14 am
  #38  
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Originally Posted by Tele Addict
Valeta, have you or anyone you know actually done this?
I only found out about it myself less than a week ago. This was during a meeting I had with the Servicios Empresariales. The presidenta was telling me about the autonomo who denuncia-ed and won. The Servicios Empresariales have hundreds of autonomos "on their books" and yes, they do have some who have done this. I have not done it myself as I do not qualify....I earn more than the annual minimum salary.

You seem to have some doubts about this. Do you speak Spanish? If you do just read the wording of the Court ruling - it is explained there in full.

If you don't speak Spanish but there is something that you specifically want to know then just ask and I (or someone else) can translate from the Court ruling. (The document is very long so a full translate isn't viable).
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 9:38 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Valeta, the Spanish is not a problem. And I don't doubt what you are saying, but, instinct makes me extremely cautious when dealing with bodies as powerful as these.

Regarding the court document I've done a search using the couple of sentences you posted in the original post but all I can turn up is a load of posts on forums full of contrary or bogus information. Is there any chance you have a link to a more complete version of the text.
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 9:55 am
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

Originally Posted by Tele Addict
Valeta, the Spanish is not a problem. And I don't doubt what you are saying, but, instinct makes me extremely cautious when dealing with bodies as powerful as these.

Regarding the court document I've done a search using the couple of sentences you posted in the original post but all I can turn up is a load of posts on forums full of contrary or bogus information. Is there any chance you have a link to a more complete version of the text.
Have a look here:

Excepción a la obligación de alta y cotización en el Régimen Especial de Trabajadores Autónomos

http://noticias.juridicas.com/articu...57635124.html#

Throughout the document it talks about Insurance Sales People (I assume that this was the profession of the autonomo who did the original denuncia) however at the end it states that this could apply to any sector.

Last edited by Veleta; Mar 30th 2010 at 9:57 am.
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Old Mar 30th 2010, 11:20 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: AUTONOMOS - how to avoid paying the 250 euros per month.

HI, here´s link to first hand account of someone whose been through this process. It covers both his visit to the Hacienda and to the SS.

http://emprendeblog.es/general/pasos...oder-facturar/

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