Assisted dying
 

Lord Carey: I support assisted dying.

Archbishop Welby: Assisted dying is 'sword of Damocles' over vulnerable


Here are two guys who would normally be singing from the same hymn sheet.

Which one would you agree with?

Re: Assisted dying
 

Lord Carey

Re: Assisted dying
 

Yup, been there, though not personally.;)

Re: Assisted dying
 

I'm certainly on Carey's side.

I had to have a cat put down recently and you really wonder why we are allowed to put an animal out of its suffering but not a dying spouse or parent.

If you want to read Carey's full statement in full it is here

Why I've changed my mind on assisted dying | Mail Online

Re: Assisted dying
 

Because animals are quite different to humans. As a shepherd, I had to put down sick lambs; hated doing it.
With humans, it becomes so very personal, but if one is in agreement with assisted dying, shouldn't therefore that person be prepared to "pull the trigger" & not leave it to someone else?

Re: Assisted dying
 

Assisted dying is not euthanasia, it is helping someone who has made the decision to end their own life but has reached the stage of being physically incapable of getting their own tablets etc.

The controversy is whether people would be coerced into ending their own lives by others. Or even dying people might feel obliged to end their lives to save expense for carers. I think this has happened in USA where medical care is so expensive.

In UK on balance I agree with Lord Carey. It is not right to withhold relief to suffering people because others might misuse it.

Euthanasia is very different, and the question there is who would do it. It is unfair to put such decisions on a medical doctor.

Re: Assisted dying
 

In this context, I don't think animals are any different. A terminally ill cat suffers pain and loss of the quality of life just like a human does.

Unfortunately, they rarely get the advanced palliative care that is available to humans, so they probably suffer more.

About the only difference is that they cannot make the decision to end their life so the responsibility for that decision lies with their owner. In many cases of terminally ill humans, they are past that point and the decision is made for them, legally or otherwise.

Similarly, they may well not be able to "pull the trigger" as you put it. In many cases, they are capable - people who go to Dignitas are usually capable of swallowing the lethal dose. In other cases, they can adjust the morphine pump themselves, but sadly, often they cannot which is why I think it should be legal to assist them.

Re: Assisted dying
 

I have some views on this highly important topic, but there is no point in posting them, all the sensible contributors to this part of the forum have been banned.

I’d best say no more in case I join them.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Many, if not most, of the terminally ill aren't in a position to do it tbemselves. They can't put in an IV or get access to the drugs, and some may barely be able to move at all.

Surely if they have the right to die, as humans they have the right to die humanely not by hanging or shooting themselves, or jumping off a bridge, always supposing they are physically capable of doing that. You wouldn't throw your old cat off a bridge - why should a human have to go that way? The way the terminally ill take responsibility is by asking for help. Only the willing respond.

Re: Assisted dying
 

I'm sure your contributions will be well accepted by those members that are happy to contribute to this forum without the interminable name calling and personal attacks that unfortunately became the trademark of PDT.

I am sure, like many of us, you have some views that we will all be happy to hear about. Please don't feel that, because of the behaviour of others, that those views are not welcome.

Come on, let's hear them :thumbsup:

Re: Assisted dying
 

I'm as interested in why Carey has changed his mind all of a sudden now he is no longer in the top job.

A typical politician hiding behind robes who believes one thing and espouses and toes the party line.

Personally I would support anything that ends the suffering. We are far too sentimental about these things.

There was a while back a film starring Julie Walters as a doctor and also married to a doctor. He got this terrible illness and died in agony and later she developed the same symptoms herself. Given her background she was able to diagnose herself and from the experience of watching her husband die she knew what to expect.

She chose not to go down that incurable route and opted for Dignitas. With her children beside her and wearing a new outfit after having enjoyed a nice lunch she entered the Dignitas 'lounge' drank a very small glass of something a passed on to wherever.

It was one of the most moving things I have any seen on TV

How much better than being fully compos mentis unable to communicate waiting for someone to wipe your backside and feed you.

Re: Assisted dying
 

I would certainly want that option.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Why don't you read his article - he explains why he has changed his mind.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Definitely sounds like an option I would like to have available.

BTW if it's that easy it makes you wonder why they don't use it for executions.

Re: Assisted dying
 

In the case of assisted dying / suicide what happens to Life Insurance ??

Re: Assisted dying
 

There have been shortages of drugs available for executions where manufacturers do not want it to be used for this purpose. This has led to some of the botch jobs.

Re: Assisted dying
 

I’ve had the misfortune to observe the extreme suffering of two extremely close family members at first hand. I spent nine days and 12 days at their bedside holding their hand or trying in some small way to help them on their final journey.

One was at a hospice in London, the other in a similar establishment abroad. Both had arrived at the end of their journey after many years of horrible suffering which they would have gladly ended had they been able to. I would have helped them had I been able to.

Technically, one died from Alzheimers the other from a similar dementia, neither explains their suffering in their final years.

Instead of drip feeding them Diamorphine during their final months, I feel that a properly administered single dose some years previously would have been much kinder.

How much de we give away about ourselves on a public forum? I haven’t got a clue, but I’ve got ten grand put away in a safe place for a trip to Switzerland should I need it.

I don’t want to go for a while yet.

Re: Assisted dying
 

You might be interested in this article too.

Christian Medical Comment: Why Lord Carey is so desperately wrong about legalising assisted suicide

Re: Assisted dying
 

Two issues--
I agree with you, I would certainly go to Switzerland or similar place, but family would possibly be horrified, or they might argue with different opinions, not a happy way to leave them.

Secondly you mentioned dementia, I would want a single dose if I became demented, but if there is no 'living will' who makes the decision?
The patient would be unable to make rational decisions.

It would then become euthanasia and 'putting down' a potential slippery slope to solve the problem of too many dementia patients to pay for.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Good article - thanks for posting.

It highlighted from a logical, legal and humanitarian viewpoint various inconsistencies in Dr Carey's reasoning.

The author of the article says that Carey's piece...

... high praise indeed but I suspect that a member of either of those two bodies wouldn't have made the errors Carey did.

Ultimately I have a deep distrust of religion when it come to consideration of matters such as this. It operates within a framework of flawed thinking and unfounded faith which is unhelpful in the real world in which we live and die.

Better to leave such matters to people without a point of view which has no relevance to so many of the population.

Re: Assisted dying
 

I would add a codicil of ‘doctor’ assisted dying to the equation, as they have in some more enlightened countries. If there is no living will, a decision would have to be made by a kind of family council, if such a sensible ‘jury’ could be put together.

In the two cases I have mentioned there was total family agreement to have ended the suffering sooner, had the law allowed it.

I’ve read the former bishop’s comment and agree with his changed views. I listened to a consequent view by the current bishop of Carlisle and thought the man to be a total oaf, a cruel one at that who believed in suffering for the sake of some silly belief, his own.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Note that in the case of demetia, the new law wouldn't apply unless the sufferer was adjudged to be going to die in the next 6 months. It also wouldn't apply to the poor chap with locked in syndrome for the same reason.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Thanks. I always try to have a 'balanced ' viewpoint.
You've piqued my curiosity as to why religion operates within a framework of flawed thinking & unfounded faith. Surely the exact opposite is true.

Re: Assisted dying
 

:goodpost: agree

Re: Assisted dying
 

Wait until the accountants in the NHS come to terms with the implications ! They will be making us feel guilty for extending our lives beyond their actuarial expectations.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Dozy.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Three score years and ten, that was the norm. Even at fifty, it still seemed a long time away. Any attempts to stop the clock at sixty failed, anti aging cream doesn’t work and the wrinkles multiply at a pace.

The really nasty stuff doesn’t apply to us normal people does it? The ageing aunt smoked too much and the uncle drank too much.

But what about the other uncle? He trained all his life, didn’t drink or smoke and got lung cancer and died at a young age.

Our esteemed House of Lords is currently discussing assisted dying. The Holies are against it and outnumber the Liberals so I don’t suppose it will get through.

The option of Zurich for ten grand is there for people, I don’t know whether to call them brave people or cowards?

Re: Assisted dying
 

Like Lord Carey, I too have changed my mind

My main objection to assisted suicide was that, like abortion, the carefully thought out checks and balances would be eroded and eroded until the practice became (also as in the case of abortion) as commonplace as taking a paracetamol for a headache, and with just as little thought given. I could forsee people who were depressed, anxious, or just 'burdensome' taking this way out when really it would not be their choice.

However, I've since realised that the answer is not to oppose the law, but to be ever-vigilant in making sure that the checks and balances ARE applied rigorously, learning the lesson from Holland and always being aware of standards and not letting them slide.

Therefore I am on the side of Lord Carey.

Re: Assisted dying
 

This is something that always worried me until Graham was so ill. Previously he had always said that if he had a huge problem and there was no hope that he wanted me to help him to end his life. However, he was extremely ill for almost 3 years and his difficulties seemed to keep on multiplying yet he still had the all important thing, HOPE. Due to the fact that his first operation meant that he became an insulin dependent diabetic he had the means to end his life whenever he wanted to. So knowing his beliefs I asked him not to do this on a whim in the middle of the night as it was not fair on me to find him in the morning but that we should talk it over beforehand. I knew that I would have a huge problem actually helping him apart from providing the insulin syringe pen and leaving him to complete the task. For me it was important that Graham could always fulfill his wishes and live or die on his terms so I accepted that he had the right to end it and that I should give him any help that he needed to achieve this but it is difficult when all you want is to have that person in your life.

He constantly bemoaned the fact that he was "burdensome" and that I was exhausted caring for him because his medical needs were very complex but he never attempted to end it. I used to inject him so it would have been very easy for me to make a mistake with the amount of insulin so could have stopped him being a "burden" at any time.

His last hospital admission was traumatic, he ended up in intensive care and the doctor tested his reactions on wanting to live by taking him off one method of the provision of oxygen and putting him onto another. He immediately panicked and was fighting to live so she made the decision to be aggressive with the provision of care. She told me later that his strong reaction proved to her that he was not so weak that he wanted to give up.

We both strongly believed in assisted dying to relieve the patient of their horrible difficulties so it was quite a shock for me to see my weak and emaciated husband fight so strongly to live. There was no real hope at this stage, I had realised that the end was close and I know that he had too and also he had told me whilst in the ward that he had had enough so his strong reaction was unexpected. Partly due to his weak state and partly due to his beliefs I guess that I expected him to just lay there, accept and in a way be glad because living really was hell for him. He was intubated and put on a ventilator, dialisis, etc so could no longer speak but could nod and blink in response to questions but after a few more days he opened his eyes very wide and stared at me and that was when I knew that he had given up and wanted it to end, he did not open his eyes or respond to anything after this. A few more days passed and he had further deteriorated the doctor did technically assist in his death by providing him only with sedation and stopping all of the aggressive treatment and medication that was keeping his body alive.

So this experience has rocked my belief, it has made me wonder who benefits from the death of the patient and made me wonder whether people do ever really give up the will to live. Such a difficult subject for people to talk about when emotions are high and unfortunately often people find it difficult to talk freely about their wishes when they are healthy.

Now I sit on the fence and wonder.

Rosemary

Re: Assisted dying
 

Wow :(. I nearly faced that with my father but he went far more quickly.
While I support assisted dying, it is a very complicated issue with each case different.

Re: Assisted dying
 

Faced it with family members but like you was spared the long drawn out health problems by the patient dying quickly. Totally agree with you about how complicated it is and that each case is different as are the people involved.

I do not really know whether I could assist anyone dying as I am not a confident person but I have always believed in a persons right to live so therefore I also believe in their right to die but this experience has made me so unsure.

Rosemary