Assisted dying.
 

Having watched some terrible and needless suffering within my own close family over the years, I agree with Terry Pratchett on this disturbing topic. The subject has been widely covered in the press of late, this is the latest reference:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...documentary.do

It's a disturbing topic, and needed some brave people to take it on.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I did not watch the program so forgive me if the following was discussed.

I believe one of the main obstacles to assisted dying is the question of money.
The taxman wants every last penny he can squeeze out of you, and where do the Insurance companies stand.

Personally I believe assisted dying should be allowed to release people from suffering.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Pratchett seems to make a good living out of dying! Oh and Alzheimers from which he has gained lots of awards. Sort of contradictory when I see him pontificating on TV. He is supposed to have had it for about 5 years:zzz:

I don't watch those programmes I find them distasteful and there is a worrying obsession with it in the media.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Having nursed my mother whilst she was dying with cancer I have every sympathy for those who want to die with dignity when they feel that the time is right for them. However, I could not be part of this decision making and therefore could not help another human being end their life.

Rosemary

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Pratchett has made a fortune from the discworld novels. He has no need to 'make a good living' as you so charmingly put it.

I met the man on a couple of occasions, and a more decent, polite and non stuck up person, it would be hard to find.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

A great believer in it. There are many obstacles in the way of making it legal but, like any other complex situation they can be resolved. If I reached the stage in my "life" whereby I and those around me were suffering I would remove myself from society and no one will ever convince me that I should not have that right. The method is the difficult part particularly to do it painlessly.

Graham

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I have not watched the link. I saw a lovely person die in a way I wished they did not have to bear. The pain management plan was not written up with the individual in mind, more like the statistic. I firmly believe we should all be allowed to die with dignity and if we make the decision when, then that also should be allowed. On saying that I doubt I could assist but then again when in the situation who knows whether they may or may not be able to assist. I do know no living being should be allowed to die in agony in this day and age.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I am a passionate believer in voluntary euthanasia being legalised. Even before my own father repeatedly told me whilst he was in hospital before his death that he had enough and wanted to die, I did not believe that anybody should be forced to prolong their life if they themselves have decided that they do not want to go on.

I respect the right of others to hold the opposite view, for religious or other reasons, but not their right to impose their views on me.

I do not understand how things such as the so called Liverpool Care Pathway, which effectively means death by slow starvation and dehydration, can possibly be legal or less distressing for doctors and nurses to have to administer than allowing a simple injection or drinking a barbiturate solution to end someone's life painlessly and allow them to die with dignity.

I loved my Dad very much and still miss him every day, but I would have been glad to have been the one to help him drink barbiturates or administer an injection had I been able to, rather than him having to suffer as he did.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I was told that when my grandfather grew old, he said that he would rather be taken up the field and shot rather than go into a home.

Given the way old people are treated in homes, I think he had the right idea.

I think the idea of being bedridden, possibly in pain, but more significantly bored out of your mind, is a level of cruelty that is quite beyond the pale.

On Matthew Wright this morning they were discussing this, and some little twat came on the phone saying that it was wrong, and that people were properly looked after, and so on. He obviously hadn't seen the reports on the lack of care in old folk's homes.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I know of two countries, Switzerland and Holland, and one state in the US, I think it's Oregon, where assisted suicide is legal and there are bound to be others in the future. There is also a strong movement in Scotland to go down this road.

Various religions seem to stand in the way, they cheerfully advocate killing, but take a silly stance against assisted dying.

I spent several days at the bedside of a close relative, watching pain and suffering, no quality of life, and worst of all, no dignity.

But things are slowly changing in the UK too, assisting suicide is still on the statue books, but there have been few prosecutions of late.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Religions.

My favourite quote was from South Park where the religious were protesting the turning off of a life support machine for a terminal case. They said it was 'playing god' by turning it off.

Duuhhh, surely it's playing god by keeping them alive?

My attitude is that it's my body, and I have the right to take my ball and go home early if I choose.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Number one, religion has no part to play in this because religion is an invention and has nothing to say that non-religious people can't express. Invented morality is a hindrance.

Nobody who supports the right of people who are suffering (in the sufferer's mind too much to bear) to chose their time to die think that the choice should be made by others, it is the potential dead person who decides.

Clearly it is difficult to legislate to allow assisted death before the body gives up, ignoring the religious and superstitous rubbish involved in discussion about such legislation, but many humans dependent on others, without the ability to exercise their last desire, are frustrated by the blaming morality of those who don't understand.

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Sadly, life is always made more difficult by people with a religious/moral agenda.

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What I hate is the argument that it's God's will that someone should suffer. Fine, if that's what 'they' want to believe, let them, so long as 'they' don't impose it on others.

What I don't get is why 'they' don't therefore reject all forms of medical intervention, be it surgery, blood tranfusion or just taking paracetemol. If God wants you to suffer, then suffer! Why the inconsistency?

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Voluntary euthanasia or assisted dying...call it what you will, should be enshrined in our basic human rights!
As a non-religious person myself I don't think the do gooders of this world have any say in whether a person should be allowed to die.
What makes these people think that their views should override those of someone in unbearable pain who just wanting release?

I have watched several members of my family die slowly in great pain, not one of these people given the choice wouldn't have opted for a more dignified way out.
When my father-in-law was dying he had a wonderful doctor who eased his end, something that our entire family were very grateful for, of course as things stand he was putting himself at risk of prosecution....but it shouldn't be that way!

I can only hope that the law soon reflects the wishes of people like myself and my husband! We have made a pact that should one of us end up in that position the other would assist in a dignified exit, no bible basher will ever change our minds on that!

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Just to show how it is (sometimes) here in Spain.

A friend of ours was living with us when he was diagnosed with lung cancer. To cut a long story short, our doctor (who visited most days) kept 'upping' the morphine but did mention that there would come a point when it ceased to be effective.

He then made an astonishing announcement - well it was to me as I didn't know that there were such 'sensible' doctors about.

He mentioned that when the time came and my friend could not take the pain any more, he could be asked to administer 'the final dose'. Basically, he said that my friend would simply slip away and not wake up!

Despite my friend trying to stay with us so that he could see his grand-daughter (born a week earlier but in England), he finally could take no more and asked to go.

It was beautifully done with such sympathy - what a great doctor.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I think that more doctors would help in this way but are afraid of being struck off. In fact it is surprising really that he felt that he could talk so freely with you all considering that you are not Spanish and could be likely to report him.

He saved your friend from a longer drawn out painful death so this must have been better for his partner too.

Rosemary

Re: Assisted dying.
 

That's because you are using logic.

Religious people have a terrible problem. Having staked their claim to a position in the religious heirarchy, they are faced with inconsistancies. They can't admit their religion may have got it wrong, so they develop more and more complex and ridiculous arguments to justify what is an untenable position.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

That is exactly the way it happened in England for my father-in-law, he had a wonderful and sympathetic doctor indeed!

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How nice to have a decent and sympathetic doctor.

Of course, there is a very easy way to do it yourself, just set up an 'oxygen tent' with an air pump that circulates the air thru a sodium hydroxide wash, followed by a water wash. Basically the oxygen levels fall in the tent, but the CO2 is removed, so you don't feel as tho you are suffocating.

I knew of someone who did this as an experiment to test mental functions in the absence of oxygen. Bloody stupid and dangerous, because he passed out and would have died had someone else not walked into the lab at that moment.

He said it was like being hit by a warm, fluffy pink marshmallow travelling at 100 mph.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Whenever society is faced with state stupidity, some parts of it try and circumvent the obvious failure of the state. I don't know where that sentence came from, all I should have said that we have a local Spanish, private doctor who is known as Doctor Death.

Whenever a dying patient is released from hospital to die in peace at home, he can be called to administer suitable doses of diamorphine to relieve the pain. He is not cheap, but I believe he is most effective in putting an end to the suffering.

I must admit I don't like the doctor, who runs a normal practice as well. I've visited him on occasions for simple things like an ear infection from excess chorine in the swimming pool, and found him to be an extremely cold fish.

Perhaps I don't like him because he charges 50 Euros per consultation, a visit to inject a dying patient at home costs a lot more.

What do I know?

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Harold Shipman

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Problem was he didn't wait till they wanted to go!

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Maybe he did.

But he didn't discuss it with friends and family so they could post on forums comments that could lead back.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Forum discussions can be dangerous, unless the topics do not extend to anything beyond the best grass seed on the market or the times of the last bus from Malaga. Important subjects are approached fearfully, your views can get you into trouble with members who disagree strongly; but I believe people like Pratchett are right to tackle difficult topics head on.

My problem with assisted dying is that no one has ever come back to verify the least painful method employed. Is it a carefully prepared beaker of deadly barbiturate, an injection of strong morphine, or a blast from a 12 bore?

Perhaps we can learn from how we deal with our dogs when their suffering becomes too much. I called a qualified vet to our home where my dying dog was injected while I was there to comfort him. He died within seconds and I was greatly relieved that his suffering was over. That I cried for the next month is irrelevant.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

You know that you did your best for your poor old dog and it is great that a vet can do this for an animal and many of us want that option for humans. However, as I said before it does not matter how for it I am I do not think that I could actually help someone.

People who assist have to be very strong. I am not talking about the person who administers an overdose of morphine or whatever but the person who helps the dying person to fullfil their wishes by doing the organising. For me I think that I would always feel guilty for making the arrangements and this would then add to the grieving process.

So although I am for assisted dying I am against being the helper.

Rosemary

Re: Assisted dying.
 

That is truly disturbing. One cannot know whether to allow it or not to allow it because of religious reasons usually. I admit that I am even scared to think about death.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Why? Look at it logically. It is logical to fear dying unpleasantly or painfully, but illogical to fear death.

There are only two alternatives. Either there is life after death, or there isn't.

If there isn't, then there is nothing to worry about because you will have ceased to exist and be beyond pain, pleasure or anything else.

If there is a life after death, then why worry? It's illogical that any god would be less empathetic than us, and no person with the slightest empathy could contemplate a hell.

If there were a god and he had no empathy it would be worse than living under the Nazis.

So, why worry?

Re: Assisted dying.
 

That's why I said that a nitrogen flush aka breathing deoxygenated air is about as painless as it gets, as I knew someone who had done it.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

You are not alone, many, many people say that they are afraid to think or talk about death. Many say that they are afraid of death but in actual fact they should rephrase this and say that they are afraid of the process of dying rather than death itself. If we were all told that when our time was up we would not have any pain but would simply close our eyes and stop breathing we would all be much more accepting of this factor.

Rosemary

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Yes I feel that way too. No-one knows how they will feel until they are or due to be in the last stages of a terminal disease. I think I would want to cling on to the very end. Pain control for cancer is very effective now with pallitive care. I would always wonder if I had done the right thing by helping someone. When my Mother was in the last stages of cancer she fought to the very end and was optimistic (at least in front of me). The last few days I used to hope for her to slip away in her sleep and I even felt guilty about that.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

When my father said to me that he had had enough and wished he could die, I felt so guilty and helpless that there was nothing I could do for him. I still do. I would gladly have helped him if I could, and thought of it as the last thing I could do to show I loved him. Depends which way you look at it, I guess.

I don't think it is always just down to pain control, either. Sometimes people must get just so sick of not being able to do anything but lie in a hospital bed and be dependent on others for every bodily function, I know I would find that intolerable.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I agree with you, it is not always about pain control. When my MIL had her last stroke she became lucid for only a short time and then lasted several weeks totally out of it. My OH felt that she (as the person) had already died and wanted things to end for her, however when she was moved from the hospital to a nursing home he was asked whether they should continue to hydrate her or not, he could not go with the obvious and asked them to keep her hydrated. Very difficult when you are so torn between what you want to do but feel that you cannot do it.

Rosemary

I think that if they had said that they could give her something to quicken things up he would have accepted but withdrawing the basics seemed so cruel.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

The trouble with legalising euthanasia in the UK is that both the Church of England and the Catholic Church are opposed to it. The Churches influence is waning, as is the Monarchy's, but I can't personally think of suitable alternatives.

So we muddle along, listen to the Archbishop's speech and applaud Royal weddings. Pockets of opinion support more freedom, but they are muted, the majority of our people don't care about issues like euthanasia and pensioners going skint, the future is new life and council houses for single mothers.

Maybe that's how it should be?

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I don't see what is so disturbing!

The truly religious (which I'm not) don't have to be involved in it in any way at all, but by the same token they have no right to try to stop others getting help to end their suffering if that is what they wish to do!

As for dying it holds no fear for me, but dying in great pain and without dignity and control does.
If we love someone enough then we have to let them go, doing that one final thing for them takes great strength....but an even greater love!

Re: Assisted dying.
 

No. We should have the right to choose.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

I wholeheartedly agree Bil...

What makes these people who "have religion" think they have the right to impose their views on those of us that don't?
Have they learned nothing from the empty pews and derelict churches....their day of dictating how we should all think feel and act are long gone!

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Given what so many prelates get up to, they are in no position to preach to us on what moral stance we should take.

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It was during my first few months in Spain that the doctors from the Severo Ochoa hospital in Madrid were suspended over allegations of malpractice for providing palliative care. They were accused of the "homicide" of hundreds of patients.

They were cleared but if I remember rightly they never got their jobs back.

It's one of those news stories I will never forget and if there is such a thing as karmic justice, then those who made the accusations and brought the charges will die horrible lingering deaths with no hope of relief.

Re: Assisted dying.
 

Apart from posting the link, I don't really have much to add.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sick-wife.html

It seems that wealthy and intelligent people are more able to deal with major problems, but the internet is there for all of us. I curse it sometimes, worrying what my seven-year-grandson might find, but the couple in the quoted article found what they wanted and I can only sympathise.