Econ

I just don't understand why you just go on and on, again you post things that people never said, where did anyone say that prisoners have more rights and lived in luxury? are your glasses playing up

1) What I mean by luxury where you read it is having access to free TV, access to a free gym for example, but then I would have though that was clear in the post.

2) 'A human right in our society' from it being used in the post, but again I would have thought that is clear from what was posted.

Gosh bil, the only one I can see doing this is you.

Being a little forgetful at the moment are we?

JLFS

I dont know if it can be proved, but Nelson Mandela was given a harsh sentence, 27 years or so, and as far as I know he has not re-offended.

bil

I asked the (very) simple question to see what the **** it was that you wanted to deny them.

Let's start with freedom. They are rightly denied that, and prison is meant to be a punishment, so they don't get to vote, they don't get heterosexual relief, all fair and good. What else do you seek to deny them access to?

I'm genuinely curious here. I didn't 'pick up' on it I just want to know exactly what it is you are referring to. Without defining something, how can we know exactly what we are talking about?

bil

See, you are doing it again? bluster and muddy. Stick to the point.

OK, so you want them denied, what, all relief from boredom? Books too? Magazines? newspapers? Or are you saying they can have them if they pay?

Econ

If you didn't understand bil I am sorry but I would have though what was being meant was clear from the post.

Econ

What is wrong with work for one thing, prison factories manufacturing clothing, even other items that can be commercially used, this would probably have the advantage of being helpful towards reforming them for a start, but again this needs to be work and involve discipline, this does not mean an easy day controlled by the prisoners union and human rights that are available to someone not incriminated.

Look tools needed for reform need to be used but the problem is that these things are generally not there to reform them, probably to keep boredom at bay and stop causing problems. Giving prisoners something to do which helps reform them would be a start rather than to let them sit and watch the TV.
Removing prisoners from the command of human rights but creating a prisoners charter of rights where prison officers and even government clear away a lot of the crap they have to deal with might be helpful, then hopefully allow for some freedom of movement within the prison service in dealing with prisoners... for example.

I can just see Brussels bringing in something like that, not.

bil

Prison is a breeze. You don't have to make any plans or decisions. It's all laid out for you, and you get out of the habit, knack, call it what you will. Boredom will drive people to drugs. That in itself is interesting. They daren't use dope, as it stays in the system so long that you are very likely to get caught with the drug tests, so they turn to heroin as it is out of the system very quickly. Living proof that neither the drug laws or the prison system is much use is the fact that it is reported that it is easier to get heroin in the nick than outside.

All that conspires to institutionalise you, and you end up terrified of leaving.

That's not the prisoner's fault. It's a human response. If you want to have them stay out, you need to help them get over that.

It's therefore necessary to keep them connected to their families and the world outside, but ooopps, that means more visits and.... wait for it...TV !!

bil

Well, that does make a bit more sense. A structured work environment would be good, but are you going to allow them to earn money? Personally I think that they should, they jus shouldn't be able to spend it in prison, but it should be in a savings account awaiting them outside, with a small % of it as an allowance for treats supplied in a way that can't be traded for contraband.

bil

No, that's the point. It wasn't clear. Only now are you starting to make sensible suggestions rather than a blanket, undefined demand for their rights to be removed.

Econ

I though they do get access to families, what do you mean, have a Sat night special? get to see their kids in prison?

Prisoners coming up to release from long term can be eased into life towards the end of their sentence, giving them more access to their families and things like TV starts to take a way a deterrent. I really can't see how this is the solution to the problem.

I see there is a prison in Spain running an experiment where it is like a family prison, the kids and wife all can stay. What would worry me in this would be that kids might think that prisons are the norm and nothing to be ashamed of being put in.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat...lyprison_x.htm

bil

From what have read, it is almost as if there is a conspiracy to ensure that the maximum number of prisoners reoffend. They seem to be sent to a jail that is as far away from their families as possible, it's made hard for their partners to visit, there isn't much care put into easing a lot of them out, and I read that they get one week's money and not allowed to sign on for two weeks.

It's possible that some of that has improved in the last few years........

Oh yes, wasn't there an interesting article on Group 4 prisons? The warders have to address prisoners as 'Mr Jones' etc (just as the prisoners have to address the guards politely.) Apparantly they have a lot less problems there.


All in all, I don't care what happens to them. I just want them to stop, so if sending them off to swim with dolphins means they won't reoffend, and banging them up means they will, I'm all for giving the dolphins a chance. The 2nd time tho it's going to be the sharks........

Econ

It seems logical that they just do not return to the streets without a penny, earn a normal wage for the work but then it being clearly shown that a high percentage is deducted to go towards their keep in HM service.

bil

Fair enough, but if you are going to charge them, then you have to pay them a proper wage.

Actually that's not bad. Get them used to having a good wage coming in and they might want to keep that particular habit.

Now all you have to do is kick the habit so many have of making bad choices.