Another Franco anniversary over.
#91
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Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
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Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
I hesitate to try counting the number of times you have made reference to the Dail Mail in this thread alone.
I don't see that anyone has posted a link, directly connecting it with soft prisons, however I am sure there are plenty, just as I'm also sure that there are hundreds of alternative sources which express exactly the same opinion.
I am beginning to wonder if you are in fact a secret Daily Mail reader, which could well account for your apparent paranoia and seemingly depressed state of mind.
I don't see that anyone has posted a link, directly connecting it with soft prisons, however I am sure there are plenty, just as I'm also sure that there are hundreds of alternative sources which express exactly the same opinion.
I am beginning to wonder if you are in fact a secret Daily Mail reader, which could well account for your apparent paranoia and seemingly depressed state of mind.
Tell you what, why don't you list facts that support your claim that prisons are such luxurious holiday camps for villains, and explain your criteria/standards by which you measure them.
Then we could have an interesting discussion on what actually constitutes a right. To begin with do we really have rights as such, or are they merely expectations?
Or maybe we will just get more fluff and abuse. If so, that will really mark you down even more, - were that possible.
#92
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
There you go again. Can't answer the questions, can only stoop to abuse. The classic mark of someone who lost the plot a while back.
Tell you what, why don't you list facts that support your claim that prisons are such luxurious holiday camps for villains, and explain your criteria/standards by which you measure them.
Then we could have an interesting discussion on what actually constitutes a right. To begin with do we really have rights as such, or are they merely expectations?
Or maybe we will just get more fluff and abuse. If so, that will really mark you down even more, - were that possible.
Tell you what, why don't you list facts that support your claim that prisons are such luxurious holiday camps for villains, and explain your criteria/standards by which you measure them.
Then we could have an interesting discussion on what actually constitutes a right. To begin with do we really have rights as such, or are they merely expectations?
Or maybe we will just get more fluff and abuse. If so, that will really mark you down even more, - were that possible.
As already mentioned, if you read back, some of the opinions expressed were by those who have actually done it, experienced it and are content to continue to so do.
Cheer up bill, it'll soon be Christmas.
#93
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Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Posts: 7,653
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
No intention to offend bill, just a bit fun,as denoted by .
As already mentioned, if you read back, some of the opinions expressed were by those who have actually done it, experienced it and are content to continue to so do.
Cheer up bill, it'll soon be Christmas.
As already mentioned, if you read back, some of the opinions expressed were by those who have actually done it, experienced it and are content to continue to so do.
Cheer up bill, it'll soon be Christmas.
I know they keep going back, but as I said, that has to do with damaged, stupid people who continue to make bad choices, and who are after enough time spent in jail, so institutionalised that they are actually incapable of living free.
Ever look at the homeless on the street? Apparantly a big % of them are ex soldiers who are so institutionalised and damaged by their treatment in the army, whatever that they too just can't make it in the real world.
#94
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
Fair enuff, but that's not the point. You and econ have been steadfastly refusing to answer a couple of very simple questions after making posts that weren't lit up by smilies.
I know they keep going back, but as I said, that has to do with damaged, stupid people who continue to make bad choices, and who are after enough time spent in jail, so institutionalised that they are actually incapable of living free.
Ever look at the homeless on the street? Apparantly a big % of them are ex soldiers who are so institutionalised and damaged by their treatment in the army, whatever that they too just can't make it in the real world.
I know they keep going back, but as I said, that has to do with damaged, stupid people who continue to make bad choices, and who are after enough time spent in jail, so institutionalised that they are actually incapable of living free.
Ever look at the homeless on the street? Apparantly a big % of them are ex soldiers who are so institutionalised and damaged by their treatment in the army, whatever that they too just can't make it in the real world.
Whether or not it's an ideal alternative for homeless on the street or ex soldiers I can't say.
Possibly it could suit some and not others,depending mainly on their state of mind.
The mental state of ex soldiers is probably something for another thread, but from what I've seen its not solely down to institutionalisation, but possibly more dependant on what excessive pressures and risky situations they have previously been involved with.
#95
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Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
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Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
I can't speak for all who do it, only those I've heard in quite serious interviews, one reason I recall, was that they considered it to be a cushy wintertime alternative to not being able to meet their bills, afford any decent food or be concerned about a source of income for a while,...in turn giving them a chance to switch off and relax from the pressures and worries of keeping the wolf from the door,planning their next job, possibly on your house or mine,....or even getting a good kicking in the crutch for their troubles.
Whether or not it's an ideal alternative for homeless on the street or ex soldiers I can't say.
Possibly it could suit some and not others,depending mainly on their state of mind.
The mental state of ex soldiers is probably something for another thread, but from what I've seen its not solely down to institutionalisation, but possibly more dependant on what excessive pressures and risky situations they have previously been involved with.
Whether or not it's an ideal alternative for homeless on the street or ex soldiers I can't say.
Possibly it could suit some and not others,depending mainly on their state of mind.
The mental state of ex soldiers is probably something for another thread, but from what I've seen its not solely down to institutionalisation, but possibly more dependant on what excessive pressures and risky situations they have previously been involved with.
Look at what they said. They couldn't afford to feed themselves to a standard better than prison food, or house themselves better than in a jail cell.
It's fair to say that for some, their lives are so crap that jail is better than what they have EVEN WITH ALL ITS DOWNSIDES. But, that doesn't make it per se comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
wrto the soldiers, I think what you mean is PTS, which is very different from institutionalisation.
I'd bet that more suffer from the latter than the former.
#96
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
Now that I can understand and agree with. But, like I say, just because some individuals find jail easier than a winter pent outside on the streets or whatever, doesn't actually mean that it is a comfortable way of life, or luxurious.
Look at what they said. They couldn't afford to feed themselves to a standard better than prison food, or house themselves better than in a jail cell.
It's fair to say that for some, their lives are so crap that jail is better than what they have EVEN WITH ALL ITS DOWNSIDES. But, that doesn't make it per se comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
wrto the soldiers, I think what you mean is PTS, which is very different from institutionalisation.
I'd bet that more suffer from the latter than the former.
Look at what they said. They couldn't afford to feed themselves to a standard better than prison food, or house themselves better than in a jail cell.
It's fair to say that for some, their lives are so crap that jail is better than what they have EVEN WITH ALL ITS DOWNSIDES. But, that doesn't make it per se comfortable. Just less uncomfortable.
wrto the soldiers, I think what you mean is PTS, which is very different from institutionalisation.
I'd bet that more suffer from the latter than the former.
Had they previously done a gold bullion robbery and spent a few years living in five star luxury hotels around the globe, then likely they'd find prison life a bit of a comedown.
However it's probably more likely that they come from a poor and rough background, having spent most of their lives living from hand to mouth on whatever they could beg,steal or borrow.
So to be able to switch off from all that for a while, relax, no worries, all mod cons,2 or 3 square meals a day, sports facilities, no TV licence to pay, etc,etc, as I heard them describe it, is quite a step up the ladder in living standards, and quite understandable IMHO.
After all they've been in there before, they know what it's like, much better than you or I, so if it's so terrible why should they deliberately choose to go in again ?
#97
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Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Posts: 7,653
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
It's all a matter of opinion probably based on what they've been used to in the past.
Had they previously done a gold bullion robbery and spent a few years living in five star luxury hotels around the globe, then likely they'd find prison life a bit of a comedown.
However it's probably more likely that they come from a poor and rough background, having spent most of their lives living from hand to mouth on whatever they could beg,steal or borrow.
So to be able to switch off from all that for a while, relax, no worries, all mod cons,2 or 3 square meals a day, sports facilities, no TV licence to pay, etc,etc, as I heard them describe it, is quite a step up the ladder in living standards, and quite understandable IMHO.
After all they've been in there before, they know what it's like, much better than you or I, so if it's so terrible why should they deliberately choose to go in again ?
Had they previously done a gold bullion robbery and spent a few years living in five star luxury hotels around the globe, then likely they'd find prison life a bit of a comedown.
However it's probably more likely that they come from a poor and rough background, having spent most of their lives living from hand to mouth on whatever they could beg,steal or borrow.
So to be able to switch off from all that for a while, relax, no worries, all mod cons,2 or 3 square meals a day, sports facilities, no TV licence to pay, etc,etc, as I heard them describe it, is quite a step up the ladder in living standards, and quite understandable IMHO.
After all they've been in there before, they know what it's like, much better than you or I, so if it's so terrible why should they deliberately choose to go in again ?
The cleverness of these arguements is that they plug straight into the subconscious without going anywhere near rational thought.
Yes, to them it is comfortable. Coming from a life that is dirty, squalid and mean, jail is probably a step up.
So what would you do about it? Make Jail even nastier than living on the streets with nothing? Will that stop them stealing? I doubt it, because how else are they going to feed themselves and keep warm?
We'll ignore the fact that making the sentance more severe doesn't actually seem to work. Let's face it, US jails really do make the UK ones look comfortable BY COMPARISON, and yet, they are still full to bursting.
Based on that, if we keep making them nastier and nastier, all we will succeed in doing is at the end of their sentances, releasing people into the world that are even harder and nastier than they were when they went in.
Anyway, back to the point, which is that you are now saying that jail is only comfortable if your life is a misery anyway.
True?
#98
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Joined: Feb 2008
Location: Vejer de la Fra., Cadiz
Posts: 7,653
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
Just thought of something.
Has there ever been any proven reserch done that can demonstrate that harsher penalties act as a deterrent?
Has there ever been any proven reserch done that can demonstrate that harsher penalties act as a deterrent?
#99
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
It is not a question of a better standard of living, than a life of misery, but more a question of better than what they have at present or are expecting in the short term future,....in ADDITION to not having to be concerned about facing up to the responsibilities and worries of every day life.
Whether or not prisons serve their true purpose is a seperate question.
In some cases they do work and some ex prisoners swear never to go back.
However most seem either to be content to go back in, or else are not unduly concerned about it.
After all most sentences are short term and even shorter term for good behaviour,so it simply represents a very brief but not unduly unpleasant change, in whatever is the routine of their every day lives, which is much as I heard them describe it.
Also, most of the petty criminals concerned don't get sent to strict tough high security prisons anyway, so if they don't try or wish to escape which is usually the case, then they get treated accordingly.
As for the USA I don't really know or care ,but I have little doubt that those shown in TV movies and hard hitting documentaries represent the extreme end of the prison spectrum, rather than the norm or the less severe ones, which we rarely see, so it's likely impossible to pass accurate judgement without actually doing some porridge there.
Whether or not prisons serve their true purpose is a seperate question.
In some cases they do work and some ex prisoners swear never to go back.
However most seem either to be content to go back in, or else are not unduly concerned about it.
After all most sentences are short term and even shorter term for good behaviour,so it simply represents a very brief but not unduly unpleasant change, in whatever is the routine of their every day lives, which is much as I heard them describe it.
Also, most of the petty criminals concerned don't get sent to strict tough high security prisons anyway, so if they don't try or wish to escape which is usually the case, then they get treated accordingly.
As for the USA I don't really know or care ,but I have little doubt that those shown in TV movies and hard hitting documentaries represent the extreme end of the prison spectrum, rather than the norm or the less severe ones, which we rarely see, so it's likely impossible to pass accurate judgement without actually doing some porridge there.
#100
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,368
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
Haven't read all this thread, so apologies if it has already been mentioned, but Newsnight came from a prison last night with Ken Clarke and Paxman!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...ewsnight.shtml
From what I saw of it, most seemed happy there with little desire to leave. One lag was saying about the other prisioners saying to him,"Only three days before you are out" but he couldn't share their enthusiasm, he didn't want to leave. Another basically said it was a breeze in there, no punishment apart from missing the wife and kids. Another entered prison clean and delveloped a heroin addiction whilst in prison!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...ewsnight.shtml
From what I saw of it, most seemed happy there with little desire to leave. One lag was saying about the other prisioners saying to him,"Only three days before you are out" but he couldn't share their enthusiasm, he didn't want to leave. Another basically said it was a breeze in there, no punishment apart from missing the wife and kids. Another entered prison clean and delveloped a heroin addiction whilst in prison!
#101
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
Now rights. If you are going to compare rights between those banged up and those of us we class a free citizens, then we need to define clearly what is a right. There are the obvious ones like freedom of worship, thought, and so on. Things that are available to all people regardless of gender, colour, creed, race, sexuality etc. Should then those who are jailed be denied these? Is the ability to vote at an election solely the prerogative of free people? If so, then it could be argued that voting is not a right if that function can be denied us.
Why do you pick up on the word 'right' and then go off on this ramble, if the word did not suit you: the point being made was clear.
Last edited by Econ; Dec 1st 2010 at 3:17 pm.
#102
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
So what would you do about it? Make Jail even nastier than living on the streets with nothing? Will that stop them stealing? I doubt it, because how else are they going to feed themselves and keep warm?
We'll ignore the fact that making the sentance more severe doesn't actually seem to work. Let's face it, US jails really do make the UK ones look comfortable BY COMPARISON, and yet, they are still full to bursting.
Based on that, if we keep making them nastier and nastier, all we will succeed in doing is at the end of their sentances, releasing people into the world that are even harder and nastier than they were when they went in.
We'll ignore the fact that making the sentance more severe doesn't actually seem to work. Let's face it, US jails really do make the UK ones look comfortable BY COMPARISON, and yet, they are still full to bursting.
Based on that, if we keep making them nastier and nastier, all we will succeed in doing is at the end of their sentances, releasing people into the world that are even harder and nastier than they were when they went in.
It would obviously make a big difference if lot of the issues where tackled before they actually ended up in jail. More police on the streets would help, more discipline in schools etc.
How do you tackle the fact that unruly children and youngsters before even becoming adults can run riot without hardly any control because they know that the law doesn't or can't generally do much to them. Teachers cannot install discipline in the classroom nor parents through fear of being pulled up for it. I fear the issue is now at a stage that will be difficult to correct while the ECHR will probably go creating more problems and fear for law abiding people.
Our European society continually tries to force people rights down their throats rather than actually educating them in their responsibilities, things won't get any better while people can scare the crap out of the authorities, police and their victims by screaming human rights.
There is very little money made available than what is needed for something that is becoming increasingly more and more expensive, less police on the streets for sure is a cost cutting measure that if not where the case might help if not soulve, a more functional judicial system would cost much more money, a better working more functional prison reform service needs a lot of money, the current judicial system costs a fortune to run... in some because of the cost in dealing with human rights and paperwork. Criminals allowing to sue is a resources eater that would be better spent for criminals somewhere else on the system rather than criminals whose human rights allow them to sue.
Last edited by Econ; Dec 1st 2010 at 3:27 pm.
#103
Straw Man.
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#104
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,008
Re: Another Franco anniversary over.
You are forgetting one very important lesson that history teaches us.
Living under a dictator isn't so bad as long as you aren't one of his victims. However, dictators have a nasty tendancy to get more paranoid, not less, and they need to keep ferreting out conspiracies and plotters to have an enemy to be seen to be fighting against.
The day you go down as one of his enemies, there will be no-one there to speak up for you.
Living under a dictator isn't so bad as long as you aren't one of his victims. However, dictators have a nasty tendancy to get more paranoid, not less, and they need to keep ferreting out conspiracies and plotters to have an enemy to be seen to be fighting against.
The day you go down as one of his enemies, there will be no-one there to speak up for you.
Y deserve some K.