Chiclanagir

"Way over the top" a slight under-exaggeration. A terrible man who inflicted evil on his country. He was also colluding with Hitler to invade England.

Econ

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Franco didn't kill millions nor hundreds of thousands of his own people. You are obviously getting Franco confused with Hitler or communist dictators like Stalin. Not that it makes things alright but I think the figures are estimated to be around 35,000 dissidents... why do you say things that are way off track?

Right, so it was the pope's fault then and not Franco's that so many people where killed under his leadership (I guessed the dam church had something to do with it!) but it is fine to believe in a faith that was run by a supporter of the cause if not partly being an instigator in what you say... never much did like communist beliefs to be honest...

The Sunday Times reported on a disturbance in 2007 as the pope proposed a sainthood for some of Franco's clergy: Communists and Anarchists burnt churches and killed thousands of priests and nuns in Spain (In Franco's Spain)... maybe they got their just deserves.

I am not sure what you talk about when you say 'To be wishing for a dictator...', I guess you mean 'To be supporting a dictator....'. With your reaction I can only think you look at the world and life with blinkers on, if you could open your eyes and see what happens in your Franco less Spain and our so called 'free' world you might see that there might not be a lot of difference or rather that the differences that exist might not all be bad differences and depending on how you see they might be worthwhile differences.

I think it helps to look at the good things along with the bad to try and get a balance as most people tend to always look at the bad ones. Putting all of the bad things onto a scale does not mean what everything is bad, it means you decided to take all the bad stuff. Making decisions because of that can be a very foolish and in in your words... is terribly ignorant

Chiclanagir

[QUOTE=Econ;9008798]I don't think you know what you are talking about. Franco didn't kill millions nor hundreds of thousands of his own people. You are obviously getting Franco confused with Hitler or communist dictators like Stalin. Not that it makes things alright but I think the figures are estimated to be around 35,000 dissidents... why do you say things that are way off track?



Right, so it was the pope's fault then and not Franco's that so many people where killed under his leadership (I guessed the dam church had something to do with it!) but it is fine to believe in a faith that was run by a supporter of the cause if not partly being an instigator in what you say... never much did like communist beliefs to be honest...



The Sunday Times reported on a disturbance in 2007 as the pope proposed a sainthood for some of Franco's clergy: Communists and Anarchists burnt churches and killed thousands of priests and nuns in Spain... maybe they got their just deserves.



I am not sure what you talk about when you say 'To be wishing for a dictator...', I guess you mean 'To be supporting a dictator....'. With your reaction I can only think you look at the world and life with blinkers on, if you could open your eyes and see what happens in your Franco less Spain and our so called 'free' world you might see that there might not be a lot of difference or rather that the differences that exist might not all be bad differences and depending on how you see it might be worthwhile differences.

I think it helps to look at the good things along with the bad to try and get a balance as most people tend to always look at the bad ones. Putting all of the bad things onto a scale does not mean what everything is bad, it means you decided to take all the bad stuff. Making decisions because of that can be a very foolish and in in your words... is terribly ignorant [/

"Franco didn´t kill thousands of his own people". Yes he did he also set up concentration camps including Los Merinales in Seville. He also colluded with the Nazis in sending jews back to Germany´s concentration camps. Bodies are still being discovered now. There are also the lost children who were taken away after birth and given to Franco´s followers and their families were told they had died.

In his recent, updated history of the Spanish Civil War, Antony Beevor "reckons Franco's ensuing 'white terror' claimed 200,000 lives. The 'red terror' had already killed 38,000."[35] Julius Ruiz concludes that "although the figures remain disputed, a minimum of 37,843 executions were carried out in the Republican zone with a maximum of 150,000 executions (including 50,000 after the war) in Nationalist Spain."[36] In Checas de Madrid, César Vidal comes to a nationwide total of 110,965 victims of Republican violence; 11,705 people being killed in Madrid alone.[37]

Econ

This is all hearsay, the only information I have ever read is that Franco made a list of jews names, he didn't send any of them anywhere, there is also no knowledge that Franco knew what was Hitler was doing to jews... in fact it is beleived Franco had Dewish blood in him.

The part of your reply I picked up on was: 'Antony Beevor "reckons Franco's ensuing...'. Reckons, a very important word, if every thing in the world worked with the word reckons, what a mess we would all be in... in fact, maybe it does actually, or maybe Bush and Blair also think as Antony Beevor.... as some posters here seem to and then use it as gospel.

I think you will find that these numbers being checked around where probably during the war if not even accurate, how can they be?... again not to say that this makes everything right.

BTW, here is some more info from the same web site you took your stuff from:

The Spanish Civil War was a major conflict in Spain that started after an attempted coup d'état committed by parts of the army against the government of the Second Spanish Republic. The Civil War devastated Spain from July 17, 1936 to April 1, 1939, ending with the victory of the rebels and the founding of a dictatorship led by the Nationalist General Francisco Franco.

during the first months of the fighting most of the deaths did not come from combat on the battlefield but from political executions in the rear—the 'Red' and 'White' terrors. Payne claims that the terror consisted of semi-organized actions perpetrated by almost all of the leftist groups, Basque separatists being an exception. [5]

Describing specifically the Red Terror, Payne suggests that this "began with the murder of some of the rebels as they attempted to surrender after their revolt had failed in several of the key cities. From there it broadened out to wholesale arrests, and sometimes wholesale executions, of landowners and industrialists, people associated with right-wing groups or the Catholic Church.

The Red Terror in Spain is the name given to various acts committed by Spanish Republicans during the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s. It included sacking and burning monasteries and churches and killing of 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy, as well as attacks on landowners, industrialists, and right-wing politicians.

It is estimated that in the course of the Red Terror, 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy were killed.[1] Another source breaks down the figures as follows: 282 nuns, 13 bishops, 4172 diocesan priests, 2364 monks and friars, among them 259 Claretians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits were killed. In some dioceses, the numbers are overwhelming: "in Barbastro 88 percent of the secular clergy were murdered, 66 percent in Lleida, 62 percent in Tortosa, 44 percent in Segorbe, about half of the priests in Malaga, Menorca and Toledo." There are accounts of the faithful being forced to swallow rosary beads, being thrown down mine shafts and of priests being forced to dig their own graves before being buried alive

Do you think a democratic society of a country would do a lot different than Franco if the above happened today?

cricketman

[QUOTE=Chiclanagir;9008811]
In his recent, updated history of the Spanish Civil War, Antony Beevor "reckons Franco's ensuing 'white terror' claimed 200,000 lives. QUOTE]

That's the same book I read and where I get my information from. Along with stories from my OH's family of her great uncles getting rounded up from their villages and shot in the head, their bodies never to be found.

Econ, you really should know more about what you talk about. People like you is what leads to dictators coming to power. You already are insighting murder. Will you be giving your support for Muslim suicide bombers next?

Dick Dasterdly

[QUOTE=cricketman;9009084] People supporting either side could well be thought of as inciting murder.

Anyone who has studied the years preceding the Civil war, would realize it was almost inevitable.

Apart from the constant turmoil and in-fighting between the various Republican factions which was never going to be settled, and continued throughout the war making the final result inevitable, the Republicans were also well into butchering Catholic priests, on a fairly regular basis, long before the war started.
Whilst there is no excuse for Franco's atrocities, the same can also be said of the other side and it was partly such actions by the Republicans prior to the war, that made it virtually inevitable.

Had the Republicans prevailed in the Civil war, there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the result would have been a much bigger disaster for Spain, than Franco ever was.

Econ

cricketman, once again you show your poor capability in reading and understanding the English language... insulting others does not correct this or win over a discussion.

cricketman

[QUOTE=Dick Dasterdly;9009121] I agree that if the Republicans won it could have been just as bad as Franco, which is why we should be glad that we have a democracy where people can't come round to your house and shoot you in the head because of your political views.

I am anti-fascists and I am anti-dictators.

I do agree that there are many things wrong with democracies, but I can't see any evidence of a "good" dictator, nor can I imagine one as dictators need to eliminate their opposition, there is no other way for them to govern. Possibly Castro is a good dictator, and if the US hadn't tied his hands behind his back with their embargo then who knows what Cuba could have been.

Econ, if you want to compare qualifications or reading lists then you're barking up the wrong tree!

rugbymatt

Melodramatic? Nah... not much.

cricketman

I dont think so actually. People who advocate murderous dictators should be nipped in the bud, especially during the very difficult times we may soon be living through.

Econ

A democracy that Franco laid the paving stones for before his death.

No! tell me where you manage to avoid the chance of this happening because I read a lot about people being shot on the streets of Spain now, several in Fuengirola and Marbella this year alone, god knows how many more that I haven't heard about.

Right, Castro is estimated to have killed 15,000 since taking office. Extensive and systematic imprisonment of political opponents who were subsequently denied any means of defending themselves and were subjected to physical and psychological torture.

Why do you contradict yourself? you hate Franco and yet Castro is possibly a good dictator 'after saying there is no evidence of a good dictator' , what is the difference between them is your eyes?

Your reading lists obviously don't include 'The Black Book of Communism'.

Consider yourself nipped cricketman

Dick Dasterdly

" I can't see any evidence of a good dictator."
" Possibly Castro is a good dictator".
???????????

Not quite sure what you're on cricketman,but I think I would put away back in the cupboard if I was you.

rugbymatt

For future reference maybe this picture might be more appropriate?

cricketman

Point 1. No, Franco wanted his succesor, King Juan Carlos to run as a dictator in his image. Maybe you should try reading Paul Preston's excellent book about Juan Carlos like I have, he is the real Spanish hero, along with the first set of politicians who took Spain to democracy.Your statement here shows you know almost nothing.

Point 2. You're joking right? The only people who get shot in this area are English and Irish drug dealers by other English and Irish drug dealers. You mentioned in a previous post that people in the UK and Spain are terrified to leave their house because of threatening behaviour from louts What world do you live in? I dont know anyone in the UK or Spain who is at all worried about the threat of loutish behavour. Do you write for the Daily Mail or something?

Point 3. All dictators are bad, including Castro. Although I admire him for standing up to the US, he has imprisoned and killed wrongfully like all dictators must in order to keep control of power

Econ

I can only say I 'give up' on you cricketman, you obviously just write posts with words that pop into your head, enjoy the world you live in...