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Tax avoidence/evasion

Tax avoidence/evasion

Old Feb 23rd 2015, 11:47 am
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Default Tax avoidence/evasion

What do you think of tax avoidance? Is it OK? Should we bend over and allow the tax man take whatever he wants for the benefit of 'society'? Or is it our duty to ourselves and our family to legally avoid taxes - eg by investing in ISAs, National Savings, etc in order to maximise our disposable income which we know best how to spend?
What about what they now call aggressive tax avoidance? If the tax laws allow individuals or companies to protect their wealth then why shouldn't they? Is it the fault of the individual or company or the laxity of the tax laws? Or is it our moral and civic duty to pay whatever taxes the state wants?

What is the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion - discuss!

Is it morally wrong for governments to set domestic tax rates in order to attract inward investments for the benefit of their own citizens even if this makes them a 'tax haven' in other peoples eyes? Or should there be a single homogenous global tax system so that everybody pays the same?

Should British Expats arrange their tax affairs so they only pay their taxes where they are lowest or should they continue to pay some tax to Britain in order to still claim to be British?

I started this thread so that certain people - and they will know who they are - will have an arena to discuss and argue then rather than hijacking other threads across the forum.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 12:37 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Because it's one of my peeves, and is one piece of a much larger puzzle that I believe is directly related to our economic struggles, I'll be the first to chime in with this:

First, nobody aspires to pay any more tax than they must. I have to believe that any tax authority anywhere would be gobsmacked by anyone asking to pay more than they have to. In that way, we all are guilty of tax avoidance in one way or another.

Tax avoidance is a entire industry - and I'm not talking about tax havens. It varies by country (and tax policy) but in Germany for example, you'll find a steuerberater ("tax adviser") on virtually every street corner. This is no anomaly. German tax policy is so complex, that most people have to use a tax adviser to avoid getting overtaxed - often grossly so, if you aren't paying attention. And the German tax authority (finanzamt), is one of the most aggressive in the world, and enjoys some very special "freedoms" in how it collects tax.

"Aggressive" tax avoidance.
This is when an individual or company goes to extraordinary lengths to utilise every possible legal loophole to minimise its tax burden to the absolute minimum. It's not illegal, but is arguably, immoral. And I think that's a debatable point, after all, a "good citizen" shouldn't be inclined to avoid paying its "fair share". I can't disagree with that sentiment.

However, it can be equally argued that any tax adviser worth it's pay would be as good at its job as it can possibly be. In a business, you hire someone to do a job. When they do it well, they generate extraordinary results. A good tax adviser is no different. When they legally save someone €1M in taxes, then I doubt many would complain about it.

And considering that in most European tax systems, the legal loopholes are staggering (and I'd argue that they aren't "mistakes" - they are there for a reason - but that's another topic). And considering the high levels of taxation - particularly on high-net-worth individuals, there is every incentive to take advantage of them.

I probably wouldn't bat an eye. And even though some - especially those that aren't fortunate enough to be in that position - would like to believe they are "morally superior" and would feel a "moral" obligation to pay more, I'd have to believe that under the very same circumstances, "morals" would never enter their mind.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how humans are, not some idealistic view of how they should be.

Tax "evasion" - well, this is what it says on the tin. A conscious, calculated evasion of taxes. Illegal, and that says everything. Not much more to say, really.

Now, "tax avoidance" is a topical point of debate right now, especially in light of the upcoming political elections. Political rhetoric, mostly. As evidenced by the fact that like most people, key members of all parties have demonstrably participated in varying degrees of tax avoidance in one way or another. I don't find that the least bit surprising. Nor that they accuse each other of it. Like most people, pretty much all of them are guilty of it, and it's an election year, after all.

The reality is that there is a direct relationship between tax policy and tax avoidance/evasion, as well as economic prosperity. It's no secret that Europe tops the list of the world's most taxed, yet equally suffers from both a chronic inability to achieve tangible economic growth, and it is amongst the world's most prolific in terms of chronic tax avoidance / evasion. To dismiss any correlation between them is to ignore reality - historically a very European character when it comes to economic issues.

Yet, the subject of tax relief is rarely ever considered. In fact, the response to the crisis wasn't to stimulate growth through, amongst other things, tax relief, it's response was to increase taxes. Especially the types that are most difficult to avoid - VAT, which has only burdened the average individual - not the elite.

So, my view is that Europe needs to get it's economic house in order, consider that it's supposed to be serving the population, rather than served by the population, and consider the adverse effects of it's own tax greed, before presuming that collecting more tax is the answer. After all, those who impose less taxes - particularly on average taxpayers - not only have much lower tax avoidance and evasion, but are also enjoying growing economies, with higher tax collections.

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 23rd 2015 at 1:13 pm.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 12:59 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

A recent report from the Office of Budget Responsibility has stated that the overall tax take - particularly from HNW demographic - has INCREASED since the higher tax band rate was reduced from 50% to 45% in the UK. And yet the policy of the Labour party is to restore the 50% rate. This cannot be for economic reasons - simply the politics of envy.

ISTM that it is the politics of envy which drives most of the rhetoric over tax avoidance. After all, how did the HNW individuals accumulate their wealth?, with a few notable exceptions which hit the headlines, by adding to the overall wealth of their country.

I'm not a HNW person (although I was once very briefly but that's another story) in fact I am now a poor pensioner () but I don't begrudge the wealth creators from enjoying the fruits of their labours. They already contribute a huge amount of the overall tax take according to the OBR report, and their taxes pay my pension.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 1:04 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

The difference between avoidance and evasion is simply whether at the time the act is judged to be legal or not.
With the increase demands from society for health, education, social support, infrastructure governments will need to increase the overall tax take even with increases in economic growth.

The average man in the street cannot and will not accept that he should pay more tax and the result will be more emphasis on closing the mass of loopholes that many legally exploit.

The alternative would be to let public services stagnate and then decline which is not acceptable and would be the end of any party that advocated it.

Tax gatherers need to start to think differently and apply higher taxes on spending in areas which would not affect the basic economy or the average tax payer.
Higher stamp duty on luxury homes, close the loopholes regarding company and trusts buying the property etc
Increase vat on what can be regarded as discretionary purchases, the 50in TV , jewelry etc etc.
Who actually needs a 50 in curved screen , TV made in Korea and why should it and similar products not carry 50% vat.
You could say the same about mobile phones , Ipads etc.
End so called duty free or tax paid concessions.
You could have different levels of vat/tax on imported products and genuinly home produced.
EG .The UK produced Honda or Nissan would have lower tax on it than a BMW.
As AM writes those who can afford it will still buy them, those who cannot would spend their money in different ways.
But at least they would still have it rather than having more taken out of their wage each month.
Is this socio economic engineering, well maybe it is.

Last edited by EMR; Feb 23rd 2015 at 1:14 pm.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 2:00 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by MikeJ
A recent report from the Office of Budget Responsibility has stated that the overall tax take - particularly from HNW demographic - has INCREASED since the higher tax band rate was reduced from 50% to 45% in the UK. And yet the policy of the Labour party is to restore the 50% rate. This cannot be for economic reasons - simply the politics of envy.

ISTM that it is the politics of envy which drives most of the rhetoric over tax avoidance. After all, how did the HNW individuals accumulate their wealth?, with a few notable exceptions which hit the headlines, by adding to the overall wealth of their country.

I'm not a HNW person (although I was once very briefly but that's another story) in fact I am now a poor pensioner () but I don't begrudge the wealth creators from enjoying the fruits of their labours. They already contribute a huge amount of the overall tax take according to the OBR report, and their taxes pay my pension.
Further penalising wealth won't make anyone any more wealthy. Historically, such policies tend to most adversely affect the middle class anyway.

Say what you will about the Americans, but they target business and capital gains for the largest chunks of their tax revenue, and serve a far lighter sentence on the average taxpayer. This has two key economic benefits: a) puts more money in the hands of consumers, who spend it, which b) facilitates a market of spenders for businesses, who are taxed on their gains, which demonstrably, are substantial.

There's also c) minimises incentives for most to avoid/evade taxes.

but wait, there's d) incentivising individuals to innovate, build a better moustrap, etc. Startups in the US are easier to establish, and are generally more successful than European equivalents, and can still become wildly successful. Something that's much more muted in Europe, where we tend to penalise small business in favour of institutional industrial giants. But that's more of a regulatory issue than simply taxation - another piece of the puzzle that plagues Europe.

...and of course, e) less incubation of extremist political ideologies emerging out of public desperation - which for Europe at present, represents perhaps even more risk than simply our failing economics.

It's a much simpler system to enforce, is fairer to the average taxpayer, encourages prosperity and economic growth, discourages political instability, and is more self-regenerating.

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 23rd 2015 at 2:07 pm.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

There is one huge difference between the US and European economies and that is the % social expenditure is of their GDP.

This is not an economic arguement but a philosophical one.

The case for the US tax system would make sense if the tax revenues it generated still provided the levels of state health care etc etc etc that we have come to accept and demand as a society.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 2:21 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

I have to agree. There is a fundamental philosophical difference.

The European ideology is largely based on the concept of wealth distribution (e.g., wealth as an entitlement), whilst Americans subscribe to a philosophy of earning wealth.

Here is a very interesting study of that, from the standpoint of work ethic differences between Europe and the US.

Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work

And demonstrably, it has tangible economic consequences for both Europe and the US.

Healthcare is a completely different issue, although the US economy could substantially benefit from say, the NHS model of economies of scale.

But the NHS is a very mature institution, developed over generations, and can't be simply "turned on" like a light switch. Besides, Americans would first have to overcome their (understandable) aversion to large, paternal government institutions before they'd ever be able to embrace it politically.

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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 2:41 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
I have to agree. There is a fundamental philosophical difference.

The European ideology is largely based on the concept of wealth distribution (e.g., wealth as an entitlement), whilst Americans subscribe to a philosophy of earning wealth.

Here is a very interesting study of that, from the standpoint of work ethic differences between Europe and the US.

Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work

And demonstrably, it has tangible economic consequences for both Europe and the US.
Plus a marked difference between the haves and have nots !!

Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right.

Is Tax evaision any less of an issue in the US ?
Hardly if you look at the high profile cases such as Stanford and Maidoff etc etc.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 2:56 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
Plus a marked difference between the haves and have nots !!

Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right.

Is Tax evaision any less of an issue in the US ?
Hardly if you look at the high profile cases such as Stanford and Maidoff etc etc.
Nobody said Americans don't evade taxes, or that there are not any high profile examples (and neither of those you offered were tax evasion cases, but fraud). Keep your eye on the ball, please.

And whilst there is a greater gap in the US than in Europe, Europe's wealth disparity is climbing faster, all over, but particularly Greece, Italy, Spain. Even Germany. I'd argue that's predictable as the first decade of living beyond our means on Euro-euphoria comes to a close, and particularly since Europe primarily burdens the working class for its economic failings.

Still, tax evasion as a percentage of GDP in the US is roughly half of that of Europe, and Americans subscribe to far more elevated "tax morality" than Europeans (and frankly, the decline in citizenship morality is another predictable result of a paternal state, and another piece of the overall puzzle - another time).

I've offered plenty of evidence to support that in other threads that you have participated in. I can't be arsed to put it all up for you to ignore again.

But here's a brief summary:


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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:00 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
Increase vat on what can be regarded as discretionary purchases, the 50in TV , jewelry etc etc.
Who actually needs a 50 in curved screen , TV made in Korea and why should it and similar products not carry 50% vat.
You could say the same about mobile phones , Ipads etc. .
OK in theory, but not possible while the UK is still in the EU.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:07 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right.
That raises a whole new host of questions.

What basic rights should a government provide?

Health and education personally are right there at or near the top of the list. But I question the need to push so many people into academic higher education and think we need a better spread including apprenticeships and more hands on workplace education.

Also should people be paid benefits for staying at home because they are unable or unwilling to find work. That may differ at times due to economic variances and any policy would require flexibility.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:41 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR

Is the US economy a better example because it rewards some but by default punishes others by depriving them of that which we in Europe regard as a basic right.
Well, you illustrate precisely what I mean by "wealth as an entitlement" as opposed to "earned wealth". It is a fundamental difference in ideology.

In the former, wealth (wherever that comes from??) is "distributed" to the population - a "basic right" as you suggest.

In the latter, wealth is not a basic "right", it must be earned. In that case, unfortunately, some will be wealthy, some will not. Fortunately, in the US, the middle class still outnumbers both the rich and poor by many orders of magnitude, and it is indeed still possible to earn wealth and enjoy it without it being taken from you.

So, as long as we Europeans have the "wealthy" to pay for it all, we'll be just dandy. However, penalising that wealth (as you often advise) naturally makes it much harder to earn, and take from those who do - and "distribute" to those who are "entitled" to it.

Sound remotely reminiscent of anything you've recently heard on the news? No wonder people are pissed. Goddam wealthy barstewards. We're entitled!

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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

As higher taxes promote more tax avoidance AND corporation tax is higher in the US than in the UK AND Starbucks, Amazon and Google all avoid paying UK corporation tax - then presumably they also contrive to avoid paying US corporation tax even more aggressively.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Oju
Originally Posted by Fredbargate
That raises a whole new host of questions.

What basic rights should a government provide?

Health and education personally are right there at or near the top of the list. But I question the need to push so many people into academic higher education and think we need a better spread including apprenticeships and more hands on workplace education.

Also should people be paid benefits for staying at home because they are unable or unwilling to find work. That may differ at times due to economic variances and any policy would require flexibility.
I agree and our local authority is doing just that to a degree. We hàve our university of useless degrees but.we also have an expanding technical annex where basic skills are being taught.
It is time that the emphasis in further education was not on the A star candidate but the child who in an earlier time went straight into employment as an apprentice or trainee.
This is where the genuine tax incentive for an employer could work.
Tackling the socially deprived or exploiters of the system is not something that the tax system can solve.
Maybe we just have to accept that they are a lost cause and that many will never become contributors to the economy rather remain as just consumers.
Creating worthwhile rewarding employment for the current and future generations of our young people requires a radical change in policies.
But as those who vote governments inorderto power are not those who we should be focussing on there is little chance of those changes happening.

Simply if a government said that it was going to freeze pensions and all other benefits for the elderly and transfer that money into creating jobs for the young it would lose power at the very next election.
Thus its a catch 22 situation ,we all want economy to improve.we want the skill base to rise but we are not prepared to accept that those with will have to receive less from the state in the future.
Therefore the only thing leftt is to raise tax revenue and so the circle of evasion/ avoidence will continue.

As for the UK having its own vat regime being in the EU is not an obstacle almost every member country has its own tax system.

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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:55 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by jimenato
As higher taxes promote more tax avoidance AND corporation tax is higher in the US than in the UK AND Starbucks, Amazon and Google all avoid paying UK corporation tax - then presumably they also contrive to avoid paying US corporation tax even more aggressively.
... yes, indeed. They have all learned the systematic loopholes we have in Europe - designed to provide tax relief to those who employ European taxpayers - of which they do not employ en-masse. And really, that's the real scandal.

For example, Luxembourg isn't solely populated with US companies. It's a favourite for European companies and has been for a long time.

Recent scrutiny by politicians and media organisations of aggressive structures used by technology groups such as Apple, Google and Amazon have suggested US digital firms are at the vanguard of cross-border tax avoidance. But today’s revelations show many European multinationals in non-digital industries have also made extensive use of tax engineering.

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