MH17
Jul 18th 2014, 1:27 pm
#1
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MH17
Well, another senseless, pathetic waste.
The evidence so far seems pretty damning. Putin's cronies may have just put a big unexpected wrench in his plans. This is gonna make it a lot harder to take Ukraine by propaganda, let alone force.
I'm sure heads will roll. Russian commanders on the ground in Ukraine should be very, very worried.
The evidence so far seems pretty damning. Putin's cronies may have just put a big unexpected wrench in his plans. This is gonna make it a lot harder to take Ukraine by propaganda, let alone force.
I'm sure heads will roll. Russian commanders on the ground in Ukraine should be very, very worried.
Jul 19th 2014, 4:25 pm
#2
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Re: MH17
Where east meets west, that’s Ukraine, a country at war with itself. In a way it’s where Putin is meeting Obama head on.
Nobody will ever admit responsibility for shooting down the civilian plane, how can they?
I saw a flag flying over a house where I live earlier and didn’t immediately recognise it or that it was flying at half mast. It brings home the truth as much as the horrible description of bodies raining down from the sky.
Nobody will ever admit responsibility for shooting down the civilian plane, how can they?
I saw a flag flying over a house where I live earlier and didn’t immediately recognise it or that it was flying at half mast. It brings home the truth as much as the horrible description of bodies raining down from the sky.
Jul 20th 2014, 11:46 am
#3
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,518
Re: MH17
Well, another senseless, pathetic waste.
The evidence so far seems pretty damning. Putin's cronies may have just put a big unexpected wrench in his plans. This is gonna make it a lot harder to take Ukraine by propaganda, let alone force.
I'm sure heads will roll. Russian commanders on the ground in Ukraine should be very, very worried.
The evidence so far seems pretty damning. Putin's cronies may have just put a big unexpected wrench in his plans. This is gonna make it a lot harder to take Ukraine by propaganda, let alone force.
I'm sure heads will roll. Russian commanders on the ground in Ukraine should be very, very worried.
The scale of the disaster is truly epic and the Humanitarian response woeful. Only the US can backed by its military power can stop this.
Imagine the world without the US. Mad communists and Religious fundamentalists would tear this planet apart.
Jul 20th 2014, 3:42 pm
#4
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Posts: 46,302
Re: MH17
Now the separatists are looting the bags if the dead and the Banks have had to step in to stop fraud from the stolen credit cards. Nice. Good job this lot didn't win" in taking over the whole if the Ukraine eh?
Jul 20th 2014, 7:22 pm
#5
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Re: MH17
In a war zone expect the lowest levels of human behaviour and you will still be regarded as an optimist.
Jul 22nd 2014, 2:40 pm
#6
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Re: MH17
You have long defended the US and we have had some fierce debate but I must concede that without the US the wo0rld would be far less safe. I was watching CNN last night and the US view is that further sanctions are needed but I get the feeling that the US is getting weary of doing all these thing on its own and was calling for concerted European co-operation.
The scale of the disaster is truly epic and the Humanitarian response woeful. Only the US can backed by its military power can stop this.
Imagine the world without the US. Mad communists and Religious fundamentalists would tear this planet apart.
The scale of the disaster is truly epic and the Humanitarian response woeful. Only the US can backed by its military power can stop this.
Imagine the world without the US. Mad communists and Religious fundamentalists would tear this planet apart.
There's no perfection on this planet, but obviously there's still a lot of evil. The US has its fair share, but their historical intent is clearly far more on the side of good than evil, and all of us are demonstrably beneficiaries of it.
That's why I take exception when I see the US (or the west in general) being demonised as the source of all the world's evils. All you need to do is look around the planet to realise that it's the most evil of the bunch that most want us to believe that.
And perhaps the most laughable are those who piss on our western values no matter what we do (or don't do), whilst (unwittingly) rationalising the despicable behaviour of those who wouldn't hesitate to destroy us all if they could.
Considering their power and wealth, and when compared to how some other leaders would use that power, I'd have to say the US exercises pretty respectable restraint - especially lately. Perhaps too much...
But that's what we wanted, right?
Jul 22nd 2014, 2:53 pm
#7
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Re: MH17
The US does what suits the US or the government in power at that time in history when it comes to events outside of the US.
The last US president to act in what could be called a morally correct way was FDR. maybe Kennedy would have had he got the chance.
The last US president to act in what could be called a morally correct way was FDR. maybe Kennedy would have had he got the chance.
Jul 22nd 2014, 3:05 pm
#8
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Re: MH17
Why didn't they just keep Iraq for themselves? Lots of oil there. The US could've had Crimea, but Putin got it first. Damn.
If they only do whatever interests them, then why don't they just declare the entire world a state of the US? Surely that would solve a lot of problems and make the 3 secret bankers that already control the entire world very rich indeed.
Jul 22nd 2014, 3:21 pm
#9
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Re: MH17
The US is becomming increasingly isolationist due in part to the self inflicted fiascos in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We will see more rhetoric and less action unless there is a direct threat to the US and in none of the examples you give is that the case.
MH17 is case in point, Obama is calling for sanctions against Russia but the US has little if any economic or other relations with Russia that sanctions would affect.
We will see more rhetoric and less action unless there is a direct threat to the US and in none of the examples you give is that the case.
MH17 is case in point, Obama is calling for sanctions against Russia but the US has little if any economic or other relations with Russia that sanctions would affect.
Jul 22nd 2014, 3:53 pm
#10
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Re: MH17
Welcome to the club.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
In any case, it's always bad, innit?
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
In any case, it's always bad, innit?
Jul 22nd 2014, 3:59 pm
#11
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Re: MH17
What action do you actually advocate ?
What should the US and the EU do that can have an effect ??
The sanctions just announced, picking on a few multi billionaires and new miltary contracts.
What is the US doing, diddly squat.
The only government that can influence what is happening in the Ukraine and prevent a repeat of this terrible event is Russia.
Russia will act when it deems it to be in its interest and not before.
What should the US and the EU do that can have an effect ??
The sanctions just announced, picking on a few multi billionaires and new miltary contracts.
What is the US doing, diddly squat.
The only government that can influence what is happening in the Ukraine and prevent a repeat of this terrible event is Russia.
Russia will act when it deems it to be in its interest and not before.
Jul 22nd 2014, 4:00 pm
#12
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 26,724
Re: MH17
What action do you actually advocate ?
What should the US and the EU do that can have an effect ??
The sanctions just announced, picking on a few multi billionaires and new miltary contracts.
What is the US doing, diddly squat.
The only government that can influence what is happening in the Ukraine and prevent a repeat of this terrible event is Russia.
Russia will act when it deems it to be in its interest and not before.
What should the US and the EU do that can have an effect ??
The sanctions just announced, picking on a few multi billionaires and new miltary contracts.
What is the US doing, diddly squat.
The only government that can influence what is happening in the Ukraine and prevent a repeat of this terrible event is Russia.
Russia will act when it deems it to be in its interest and not before.
Jul 22nd 2014, 5:21 pm
#13
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Posts: 19,367
Re: MH17
I sense you are missing the point in favour of finding something unsavoury in it all.
The fact is, it's in everyone's interest (including the US) to have peace and stability here, there and everywhere. And obviously, international law is useless unless it can be enforced ....and is believed to be enforced.
Having said that, we, as the populations of democracies are collectively the major, if not the main driving forces behind what our governments do or do not do, lest the elected politicians lose their jobs altogether. Politicians should fear us... That's how a democracy works.
And collectively, as armchair politicians, we no longer wish to have the burden of enforcement, rather, we just want the problems to go away. We don't like our governments to get involved, and we are less and less inclined to support any direct involvement.
We wouldn't want say, the UK, to enforce violations of international law, nor Germany, nor Spain... But the yanks usually step up to the task, and although we don't like 'em for it, better them than us. Somebody's gotta do something, right?
But wait, with all our moaning about those greedy imperialist yanks trying to take over the world, even they've pulled back are and being a lot more cautious now ("isolationist", if you must). Damned yanks - ' always thought they were nothin but a bunch of self-serving arseholes. Right?
So, what to do about Ukraine, Palestine, Syria, and all the others?
Well, ideally, we need a solid, clear, unwavering mandate from the entire international community, beginning with punishments that only increase every time the mandate is ignored, with the clear threat of military force at any point where it becomes clear that there is no will to comply - and the entire international community needs to be behind that. Otherwise, there is no reason to heed any such mandate. Unfortunately, nobody truly wants to get involved, so whatever comes from the international community is likely to be limp.
And frankly, that is precisely what is in play now. It may not be much, but there is a little stinging sensation in the derrieres of certain dubious leaders, and it's going to hurt a little more with every further violation. Hamas is getting their arses handed to them, but that's precisely what they want, so IMO Israel is making a mistake, but time will tell; the UN now seems to agree that it's Hamas' war, not Israel's.
But unfortunately, you're right - it's not terribly threatening, because we, the populations of those very democracies that object to all the violence, just don't want to get involved. We want the problem fixed, yes, but we don't want to get involved.
People like Putin and Assad and Mashaal and ISIS and Al-Qaeda and every other dictator and extremist know this very well, and is praying for the day that we will weaken ourselves to the point that we can be taken down.
In truth, that will never happen, because the day that we are directly victimised, will be the day we collectively change our minds.
The first of those days just took place. Horrific, yes, but it wasn't an attack on us directly, and blame can't be directly placed (yet), and in the big scheme of things, it's just another plane crash.
But when a ballistic missile kills 10000 in Berlin or a dirty bomb goes off in London killing 50000, only then will we be really pissed and ready to take the fight to the perps.
But until then, we common folk won't truly be interested in investing our own blood. Just what they're hoping for...
The fact is, it's in everyone's interest (including the US) to have peace and stability here, there and everywhere. And obviously, international law is useless unless it can be enforced ....and is believed to be enforced.
Having said that, we, as the populations of democracies are collectively the major, if not the main driving forces behind what our governments do or do not do, lest the elected politicians lose their jobs altogether. Politicians should fear us... That's how a democracy works.
And collectively, as armchair politicians, we no longer wish to have the burden of enforcement, rather, we just want the problems to go away. We don't like our governments to get involved, and we are less and less inclined to support any direct involvement.
We wouldn't want say, the UK, to enforce violations of international law, nor Germany, nor Spain... But the yanks usually step up to the task, and although we don't like 'em for it, better them than us. Somebody's gotta do something, right?
But wait, with all our moaning about those greedy imperialist yanks trying to take over the world, even they've pulled back are and being a lot more cautious now ("isolationist", if you must). Damned yanks - ' always thought they were nothin but a bunch of self-serving arseholes. Right?
So, what to do about Ukraine, Palestine, Syria, and all the others?
Well, ideally, we need a solid, clear, unwavering mandate from the entire international community, beginning with punishments that only increase every time the mandate is ignored, with the clear threat of military force at any point where it becomes clear that there is no will to comply - and the entire international community needs to be behind that. Otherwise, there is no reason to heed any such mandate. Unfortunately, nobody truly wants to get involved, so whatever comes from the international community is likely to be limp.
And frankly, that is precisely what is in play now. It may not be much, but there is a little stinging sensation in the derrieres of certain dubious leaders, and it's going to hurt a little more with every further violation. Hamas is getting their arses handed to them, but that's precisely what they want, so IMO Israel is making a mistake, but time will tell; the UN now seems to agree that it's Hamas' war, not Israel's.
But unfortunately, you're right - it's not terribly threatening, because we, the populations of those very democracies that object to all the violence, just don't want to get involved. We want the problem fixed, yes, but we don't want to get involved.
People like Putin and Assad and Mashaal and ISIS and Al-Qaeda and every other dictator and extremist know this very well, and is praying for the day that we will weaken ourselves to the point that we can be taken down.
In truth, that will never happen, because the day that we are directly victimised, will be the day we collectively change our minds.
The first of those days just took place. Horrific, yes, but it wasn't an attack on us directly, and blame can't be directly placed (yet), and in the big scheme of things, it's just another plane crash.
But when a ballistic missile kills 10000 in Berlin or a dirty bomb goes off in London killing 50000, only then will we be really pissed and ready to take the fight to the perps.
But until then, we common folk won't truly be interested in investing our own blood. Just what they're hoping for...
Jul 22nd 2014, 7:55 pm
#14
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Location: Alicante province
Posts: 5,753
Re: MH17
I sense you are missing the point in favour of finding something unsavoury in it all.
The fact is, it's in everyone's interest (including the US) to have peace and stability here, there and everywhere. And obviously, international law is useless unless it can be enforced ....and is believed to be enforced.
Having said that, we, as the populations of democracies are collectively the major, if not the main driving forces behind what our governments do or do not do, lest the elected politicians lose their jobs altogether. Politicians should fear us... That's how a democracy works.
And collectively, as armchair politicians, we no longer wish to have the burden of enforcement, rather, we just want the problems to go away. We don't like our governments to get involved, and we are less and less inclined to support any direct involvement.
We wouldn't want say, the UK, to enforce violations of international law, nor Germany, nor Spain... But the yanks usually step up to the task, and although we don't like 'em for it, better them than us. Somebody's gotta do something, right?
But wait, with all our moaning about those greedy imperialist yanks trying to take over the world, even they've pulled back are and being a lot more cautious now ("isolationist", if you must). Damned yanks - ' always thought they were nothin but a bunch of self-serving arseholes. Right?
So, what to do about Ukraine, Palestine, Syria, and all the others?
Well, ideally, we need a solid, clear, unwavering mandate from the entire international community, beginning with punishments that only increase every time the mandate is ignored, with the clear threat of military force at any point where it becomes clear that there is no will to comply - and the entire international community needs to be behind that. Otherwise, there is no reason to heed any such mandate. Unfortunately, nobody truly wants to get involved, so whatever comes from the international community is likely to be limp.
And frankly, that is precisely what is in play now. It may not be much, but there is a little stinging sensation in the derrieres of certain dubious leaders, and it's going to hurt a little more with every further violation. Hamas is getting their arses handed to them, but that's precisely what they want, so IMO Israel is making a mistake, but time will tell; the UN now seems to agree that it's Hamas' war, not Israel's.
But unfortunately, you're right - it's not terribly threatening, because we, the populations of those very democracies that object to all the violence, just don't want to get involved. We want the problem fixed, yes, but we don't want to get involved.
People like Putin and Assad and Mashaal and ISIS and Al-Qaeda and every other dictator and extremist know this very well, and is praying for the day that we will weaken ourselves to the point that we can be taken down.
In truth, that will never happen, because the day that we are directly victimised, will be the day we collectively change our minds.
The first of those days just took place. Horrific, yes, but it wasn't an attack on us directly, and blame can't be directly placed (yet), and in the big scheme of things, it's just another plane crash.
But when a ballistic missile kills 10000 in Berlin or a dirty bomb goes off in London killing 50000, only then will we be really pissed and ready to take the fight to the perps.
But until then, we common folk won't truly be interested in investing our own blood. Just what they're hoping for...
The fact is, it's in everyone's interest (including the US) to have peace and stability here, there and everywhere. And obviously, international law is useless unless it can be enforced ....and is believed to be enforced.
Having said that, we, as the populations of democracies are collectively the major, if not the main driving forces behind what our governments do or do not do, lest the elected politicians lose their jobs altogether. Politicians should fear us... That's how a democracy works.
And collectively, as armchair politicians, we no longer wish to have the burden of enforcement, rather, we just want the problems to go away. We don't like our governments to get involved, and we are less and less inclined to support any direct involvement.
We wouldn't want say, the UK, to enforce violations of international law, nor Germany, nor Spain... But the yanks usually step up to the task, and although we don't like 'em for it, better them than us. Somebody's gotta do something, right?
But wait, with all our moaning about those greedy imperialist yanks trying to take over the world, even they've pulled back are and being a lot more cautious now ("isolationist", if you must). Damned yanks - ' always thought they were nothin but a bunch of self-serving arseholes. Right?
So, what to do about Ukraine, Palestine, Syria, and all the others?
Well, ideally, we need a solid, clear, unwavering mandate from the entire international community, beginning with punishments that only increase every time the mandate is ignored, with the clear threat of military force at any point where it becomes clear that there is no will to comply - and the entire international community needs to be behind that. Otherwise, there is no reason to heed any such mandate. Unfortunately, nobody truly wants to get involved, so whatever comes from the international community is likely to be limp.
And frankly, that is precisely what is in play now. It may not be much, but there is a little stinging sensation in the derrieres of certain dubious leaders, and it's going to hurt a little more with every further violation. Hamas is getting their arses handed to them, but that's precisely what they want, so IMO Israel is making a mistake, but time will tell; the UN now seems to agree that it's Hamas' war, not Israel's.
But unfortunately, you're right - it's not terribly threatening, because we, the populations of those very democracies that object to all the violence, just don't want to get involved. We want the problem fixed, yes, but we don't want to get involved.
People like Putin and Assad and Mashaal and ISIS and Al-Qaeda and every other dictator and extremist know this very well, and is praying for the day that we will weaken ourselves to the point that we can be taken down.
In truth, that will never happen, because the day that we are directly victimised, will be the day we collectively change our minds.
The first of those days just took place. Horrific, yes, but it wasn't an attack on us directly, and blame can't be directly placed (yet), and in the big scheme of things, it's just another plane crash.
But when a ballistic missile kills 10000 in Berlin or a dirty bomb goes off in London killing 50000, only then will we be really pissed and ready to take the fight to the perps.
But until then, we common folk won't truly be interested in investing our own blood. Just what they're hoping for...
With a blunt hat on you could say that one half of the world is trying to kill the other half, and always has done and always will do.
A retired British General, slightly less blunt, suggested that future wars would be economic ones. Only yesterday I read a comment saying that Putin was more afraid of banks than tanks.
I suppose a quick bullet would be preferable to starving to death.
Jul 22nd 2014, 8:49 pm
#15
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Joined: Apr 2005
Location: La Saucedilla, Chiclana
Posts: 920
Re: MH17
I´ve been pondering this thread for a day or two.To be honest, I think we are missing the point. When it gets to this stage I don´t see any way back. All the diplomacy in the world cannot solve these wars that are going on in the planet.
Nobody will accept blame for what happened to MH17 and I don´t know if the ´mystery´of who did it will be solved. All I know is that families are desperate to know what happened and to have the bodies of their loved ones repatriated.
I don´t want to be a pessimist but the human race makes me so sad
I´m ready for the onslaught from some of you but I won´t change my opinion. .
Nobody will accept blame for what happened to MH17 and I don´t know if the ´mystery´of who did it will be solved. All I know is that families are desperate to know what happened and to have the bodies of their loved ones repatriated.
I don´t want to be a pessimist but the human race makes me so sad
I´m ready for the onslaught from some of you but I won´t change my opinion. .