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Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Old Apr 2nd 2011, 6:12 am
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Default Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Hello,

I need help pls,
in 2002-6 I left USA after four years of stay there. Every year of those four I asked INS to extend my stay and was granted the permition except last one when I knew that I would leave back to Europe so I did not even applied.
In 2002-10 I have decided to come back for a short visit, but immigration officer at the airport charge me with 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I). Rightfully I must admit. And because I left voluntary and exceeded 12 months of my stay without right to stay I was told that I could not enter USA for next 10 years.

My questions are:

Those 10 years count from the day I was barred from USA at the airport or the day I left the USA after those four years?

Now after almost 9 years after that event I am in the situation that I have started working for FORD Motor Company and they want me to go for some training to USA for 2 weeks on business visa. My question is what are my chances to get one and what are my chances If I get one not to be turn back at the airport by some INS officer.

And of course I have told about the situation to my employer but he insist that it is not going to be a problem.

Thanks for help
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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 6:30 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
in 2002-6 I left USA after four years of stay there. Every year of those four I asked INS to extend my stay and was granted the permition except last one when I knew that I would leave back to Europe so I did not even applied.
In 2002-10 I have decided to come back for a short visit, but immigration officer at the airport charge me with 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I). Rightfully I must admit. And because I left voluntary and exceeded 12 months of my stay without right to stay I was told that I could not enter USA for next 10 years.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your dates. Do you mean June 2002 and then October 2002?

Those 10 years count from the day I was barred from USA at the airport or the day I left the USA after those four years?
They count from the day you left the USA in June 2002 (if I'm reading your date correctly).

Now after almost 9 years after that event I am in the situation that I have started working for FORD Motor Company and they want me to go for some training to USA for 2 weeks on business visa. My question is what are my chances to get one and what are my chances If I get one not to be turn back at the airport by some INS officer.
If the ban is not completely over, you cannot travel to the USA. It's pretty clear.

And of course I have told about the situation to my employer but he insist that it is not going to be a problem.
How do they know? Are you talking to the company's immigration lawyer?

Have a consultation with an immigration lawyer, and have him put it in writing, then show it to your employer. Tell them you can go to the USA when your ban is finished.

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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 11:52 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

The 10 years started from the date of departure following the overstay if you had over a year of unlawful presence.

You will almost definitely need a visa for all future travel to the US.

You could get a waiver of the 10 year bar if you can prove you are now firmly established in your home country and they decide to grant it to you. If you get the visa then the chances of being denied entry are greatly reduced.

Were you working in the US during that time? If so, what documents were you using to do so?

I have no idea how the company could be able to say if you will have a problem or not. Seeking entry without a visa is not a possibility to you unless you are Canadian/Bermudian etc so are they even aware that you need an actual visa and cannot use the VWP?

Last edited by crg; Apr 2nd 2011 at 11:55 am.
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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72

Those 10 years count from the day I was barred from USA at the airport or the day I left the USA after those four years?
Pursuant to the statute, the bar starts the day one first leaves the US after overstaying. "Six one, half-dozen the other."
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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 8:08 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Well, I am not afraid much of not being able to prove that I am well established at the embassy applying for business visa. Even If I get visa, my fear is that the officer at the entry is going to turn me down without a reason. Well, he would have a reason, me exceeded my stay almost 9 years ago, still not 10 years ago.

And Yes I was working at that time, without papers.

Regarding the company , they big so they think they can overule anything.

My question is If should try to go thru the visa process and than immigration process while still being under 10 years ban.

Last edited by Waltham72; Apr 2nd 2011 at 8:16 pm.
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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 8:24 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
Well, I am not afraid much of not being able to prove that I am well established at the embassy applying for business visa. Even If I get visa, my fear is that the officer at the entry is going to turn me down without a reason. Well, he would have a reason, me exceeded my stay almost 9 years ago, still not 10 years ago.

And Yes I was working at that time, without papers.

Regarding the company , they big so they think they can overule anything.

My question is If should try to go thru the visa process and than immigration process while still being under 10 years ban.
If you are under still within a bar, the consulate will only issue the visa if they also issue a waiver. The waiver tells the border guard that they shouldn't deem you ineligible for entry because of the overstay/bar. There is still never a guarantee that someone will be admitted but people with a waiver are mostly allowed to travel somewhat normally.

The person within the company that you are speaking to probably doesn't know anything about to immigration law. Perhaps someone else at the company can do something other than mutter "don't worry about it".
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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 9:16 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
Well, I am not afraid much of not being able to prove that I am well established at the embassy applying for business visa. Even If I get visa, my fear is that the officer at the entry is going to turn me down without a reason. Well, he would have a reason, me exceeded my stay almost 9 years ago, still not 10 years ago.

And Yes I was working at that time, without papers.

Regarding the company , they big so they think they can overule anything.

My question is If should try to go thru the visa process and than immigration process while still being under 10 years ban.
You REALLY need to speak to the company's immigration lawyer. Is that the person who keeps telling you not to worry about it?

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Old Apr 2nd 2011, 9:57 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
Regarding the company , they big so they think they can overule anything.
Perhaps you should consider changing employment... the people you're dealing with are idiots and it is YOU, not them, who will bear the brunt of US immigration's wrath should things not go well for you.

Also, never forget that the company's attorneys work for the company... they do not work for you. They do not have your best interests at heart. Perhaps you should consider hiring your own attorney to look out for your own best interests.

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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 7:22 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

If you are under still within a bar, the consulate will only issue the visa if they also issue a waiver. The waiver tells the border guard that they shouldn't deem you ineligible for entry because of the overstay/bar. There is still never a guarantee that someone will be admitted but people with a waiver are mostly allowed to travel somewhat normally.
Thanks for advise, that is what I am going to do. On monday I ask for new passport with biometric data needed for ESTA (Electronic System for Travel Authorization) applicants. Try to apply thru ESTA which is going to be denied because of my overstay. And the system recomendation will be to contact embassy. Than the embassy issue or not issue waiver and visa. At least I would know I have tried my best on this matter.

The person within the company that you are speaking to probably doesn't know anything about to immigration law. Perhaps someone else at the company can do something other than mutter "don't worry about it".
Well, the person does not know anything about immigration law. It is just an employee who organizes the trip. I do not even know If there is a company immigration lawyer.

Well, at the worst. I can always wait till the ban is over and then it should not be a problem

Last edited by Waltham72; Apr 3rd 2011 at 7:25 am.
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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 10:17 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
Thanks for advise, that is what I am going to do. On monday I ask for new passport with biometric data needed for ESTA (Electronic System for Travel Authorization) applicants. Try to apply thru ESTA which is going to be denied because of my overstay. And the system recomendation will be to contact embassy. Than the embassy issue or not issue waiver and visa. At least I would know I have tried my best on this matter.

Well, the person does not know anything about immigration law. It is just an employee who organizes the trip. I do not even know If there is a company immigration lawyer.

Well, at the worst. I can always wait till the ban is over and then it should not be a problem
There is no reason to even apply for the ESTA. If you've been ordered removed, you are not eligible for the VWP anyway.

Even if the nam is over, you will still require a visa. Whether or not getting a visa is a problem is up to the consular official. Keep in mind that, in their eyes, you were an "illegal alien" for four years. They may not be eager to grant you a visa again considering your conduct the last time.

Your post topic said you were ordered removed 7A1. Were you previously ordered removed or VWP refused? Were you served with an I-860 and I-296? Did it only say 7A1, or did it have a 6C too? Be aware that if you were ordered removed upon arrival there was also a 5yr bar that has expired. Another removal order would be a 20yr bar.

Last edited by crg; Apr 3rd 2011 at 10:21 am.
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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 10:38 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Your post topic said you were ordered removed 7A1. Were you previously ordered removed or VWP refused? Were you served with an I-860 and I-296? Did it only say 7A1, or did it have a 6C too? Be aware that if you were ordered removed upon arrival there was also a 5yr bar that has expired. Another removal order would be a 20yr bar.
Well, I stayed in the USA from October 1998 till June 2002, last two years were illegal stay without permision. On June 2002 I left the USA thru the Newark airport and tried to come back thru Newark airport on October 2002 where I was questioned by INS officer and admitted previous overstay. I was given a choice of being processed under Expedited Removal provisions of the INA or withdraw my application for admission. I have chosen to withdraw application.

I have never been charge with any other paragraphs except the one 7Ai on my trip to USA on October 2002 when I did not even left the airport.

Even if the nam is over, you will still require a visa
Why is so? If I "serve the time" they should consider me as a person without any misconduct. At least I would expect that.

Last edited by Waltham72; Apr 3rd 2011 at 10:50 am.
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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 11:53 am
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

Originally Posted by Waltham72
On monday I ask for new passport with biometric data needed for ESTA (Electronic System for Travel Authorization) applicants.
You are not eligible to use ESTA, so don't bother. You must apply for a visa and will likely need a waiver.


Why is so? If I "serve the time" they should consider me as a person without any misconduct.
You have a prior history of disregarding US immigration rules and regulations. They are unlikely to trust you again. A criminal who serves time in prison is still a criminal, even after his sentence has been served.

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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 12:53 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

The VWP is essentially for squeeky clean travelers, not for people with major issues. Even if for some fluke of the universe ESTA were to be approved, seeking entry under the VWP would be immigration suicide.

When you originally entered on the trip that you overstayed, was it with a visa? If so, what type? The time you were sent back, did you have a visa at that time?
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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 2:17 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

When you originally entered on the trip that you overstayed, was it with a visa? If so, what type? The time you were sent back, did you have a visa at that time?
Yes, it was visa B2, and yes I had the same valid visa when returned in October 2002 and I was sent home.
I had obtained the visa in 1996 and it was valid till 2006. But because I have overstayed the INS officer cancel that in my passport.

The visa is valid for 10 years, but one stay can not take longer than 6 months. Every 6 months I ask for other six except last two years.So the visa was valid but my stay not. That is why I have got ban for 10 years.

Last edited by Waltham72; Apr 3rd 2011 at 2:22 pm.
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Old Apr 3rd 2011, 3:00 pm
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Default Re: Removed on 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) and need an advise...

The visa was actually automatically cancelled per 222(g) upon the departure following the overstay so it wasn't a valid visa when you sought entry again in Oct 2002. It may have appeared valid, but it was already toast.

Strangely enough, the regulations don't clearly prohibit your use of the VWP once the bar expires because your prior violation was not a violation following entry on the VWP. Despite your topic (you used the word Removal), you were never ordered removed. That would seem to leave the ability somewhat intact.

Even if eligible to try, seeking entry under the VWP is not a good idea. The regulations are often interpretted differently by different border guards and the border guard has the discretion and ability to summarily refuse people under the VWP.
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