Emirates Airlines: scary report
Apr 26th 2009, 5:46 am
#1
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Emirates Airlines: scary report
Pilot of Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport was sleep-deprived
* Plane almost crashed at Melbourne Airport
* Pilot in control was sleep-deprived
* Under orders to take off at reduced power
THE pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
More here:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
Am wondering which other "major" airlines follow such cost cutting methods
* Plane almost crashed at Melbourne Airport
* Pilot in control was sleep-deprived
* Under orders to take off at reduced power
THE pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
More here:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/...014090,00.html
Am wondering which other "major" airlines follow such cost cutting methods
Apr 26th 2009, 5:48 am
#2
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
I'm a Royal family source ...
Guess what? Prince William swings both ways ...
Guess what? Prince William swings both ways ...
Apr 26th 2009, 6:59 am
#3
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Am wondering which other "major" airlines follow such cost cutting methods
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Am wondering which other "major" airlines follow such cost cutting methods
From most reports, the pilots calculated the minimum thrust incorrectly - we now learn this may have been partly due to fatigue.
One thing is for sure that this was a near disaster, rather than a simple tail strike. The aircraft was barely off the ground as it left the airport perimeter fence, taking out landing lights all the way!
Apr 26th 2009, 7:24 am
#4
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
Hardly any airliner takes off using full power in general. A full power take off is usually carried out only if the aircraft weight, weather / temp conditions and length of runway dictate it. Full power take offs are also performed on a semi-regular basis to check that the engine will actaully reach that power without a problem.
A reduced power take off is done by inputting a false temperature of the day into the Flight Management System which "derates" the engine, or in Airbus terms a Flex power setting. Full power is still available if required by pushing the thrust levers into the TOGA gate. In this case, I think, the wrong temperature had been input so derating the engine too far so not enough power was produced. On a day light take off the lack of acceleration may have been noticed and TOGA selected. But being a night flight, and the reported lack of sleep, the visual clues of lack of acceleration were not so obvious.
You could call it cost cutting as it saves on fuel burn for take off. It also reduces the wear and tear on the engine as it is not operated at full throttle for excessive periods, so engine overhauls / replacement are not required as often. OR if you want we can increase the costs of your flights to cover these costs........so really it is not cost cutting by the airlines, but the public liking cheap airfares.
A reduced power take off is done by inputting a false temperature of the day into the Flight Management System which "derates" the engine, or in Airbus terms a Flex power setting. Full power is still available if required by pushing the thrust levers into the TOGA gate. In this case, I think, the wrong temperature had been input so derating the engine too far so not enough power was produced. On a day light take off the lack of acceleration may have been noticed and TOGA selected. But being a night flight, and the reported lack of sleep, the visual clues of lack of acceleration were not so obvious.
You could call it cost cutting as it saves on fuel burn for take off. It also reduces the wear and tear on the engine as it is not operated at full throttle for excessive periods, so engine overhauls / replacement are not required as often. OR if you want we can increase the costs of your flights to cover these costs........so really it is not cost cutting by the airlines, but the public liking cheap airfares.
Last edited by Tom Sawyer; Apr 26th 2009 at 7:26 am. Reason: add comment
Apr 26th 2009, 11:52 am
#5
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
Finger trouble.
Apr 26th 2009, 1:51 pm
#6
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
I'm not sure that the fact that Emirates or other airlines are using the minimum thrust is a cause for concern....at some airports (not Melbourne) this would be standard practice due to noise regulations. The minimum thrust makes allowances for things like an engine failure during the take off roll, and as that did not happen in this case the minimum thrust should have been more than adequate to get the plane off the ground.
From most reports, the pilots calculated the minimum thrust incorrectly - we now learn this may have been partly due to fatigue.
One thing is for sure that this was a near disaster, rather than a simple tail strike. The aircraft was barely off the ground as it left the airport perimeter fence, taking out landing lights all the way!
From most reports, the pilots calculated the minimum thrust incorrectly - we now learn this may have been partly due to fatigue.
One thing is for sure that this was a near disaster, rather than a simple tail strike. The aircraft was barely off the ground as it left the airport perimeter fence, taking out landing lights all the way!
Hardly any airliner takes off using full power in general. A full power take off is usually carried out only if the aircraft weight, weather / temp conditions and length of runway dictate it. Full power take offs are also performed on a semi-regular basis to check that the engine will actaully reach that power without a problem.
A reduced power take off is done by inputting a false temperature of the day into the Flight Management System which "derates" the engine, or in Airbus terms a Flex power setting. Full power is still available if required by pushing the thrust levers into the TOGA gate. In this case, I think, the wrong temperature had been input so derating the engine too far so not enough power was produced. On a day light take off the lack of acceleration may have been noticed and TOGA selected. But being a night flight, and the reported lack of sleep, the visual clues of lack of acceleration were not so obvious.
You could call it cost cutting as it saves on fuel burn for take off. It also reduces the wear and tear on the engine as it is not operated at full throttle for excessive periods, so engine overhauls / replacement are not required as often. OR if you want we can increase the costs of your flights to cover these costs........so really it is not cost cutting by the airlines, but the public liking cheap airfares.
A reduced power take off is done by inputting a false temperature of the day into the Flight Management System which "derates" the engine, or in Airbus terms a Flex power setting. Full power is still available if required by pushing the thrust levers into the TOGA gate. In this case, I think, the wrong temperature had been input so derating the engine too far so not enough power was produced. On a day light take off the lack of acceleration may have been noticed and TOGA selected. But being a night flight, and the reported lack of sleep, the visual clues of lack of acceleration were not so obvious.
You could call it cost cutting as it saves on fuel burn for take off. It also reduces the wear and tear on the engine as it is not operated at full throttle for excessive periods, so engine overhauls / replacement are not required as often. OR if you want we can increase the costs of your flights to cover these costs........so really it is not cost cutting by the airlines, but the public liking cheap airfares.
However, your information sheds a new light.
Apr 26th 2009, 2:43 pm
#7
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
You both have provided information which indicates you are knowlegable on the situation. This being the case, I am concerned about flying with Emirates. I flew with them on a monthly basis from 2004 to 2008 in and out of Perth without problems.
However, your information sheds a new light.
However, your information sheds a new light.
And the point about cost savings vs public wanting cheaper flights is a good one.
Generally - no one wants to pay for safety except in retrospect.
A bit like no one can be naffed paying attention to the saftey demonstration before take-off.....preferring instead to panic in the event of an incident.
generally speaking.
Apr 26th 2009, 3:12 pm
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
looks like we will be going with singapore air instead then
Apr 26th 2009, 3:40 pm
#9
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
We're flying with Emirates in July and have so far been singularly impressed - this isn't exactly making me want to do so! Can't do anything about it now, except assume that they will be under an intense spotlight following this, such that they have to sharpen their act - hopefully! As has been said, I'm sure they aren't alone in this practice.
Apr 26th 2009, 5:49 pm
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
Can I also comment that mainstream media are great at reporting that an "incident" of some type has occured, but any further information given by MSM on aviation related matters is pure bullshit! 
Apr 26th 2009, 5:57 pm
#11
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
Oh Great 
I just booked my flights to Perth with EK this morning - anyhow, its got to be better than Air Garuda...
I just booked my flights to Perth with EK this morning - anyhow, its got to be better than Air Garuda...
Apr 26th 2009, 11:01 pm
#13
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
Check out the other thread on this:
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=605549
Singapore Airlines have been there done that.
So that leaves the ones with the 2 metre holes in the side of the plane who aren't so great at landing in Bangkok.......or the ones who don't always quite make it to the runway......the ones who nearly flew into a mountain in Hong Kong once.....or..........
Actually Malaysian is looking fairly clean over the last 25 years.......although according to the Australian media Malaysians can't maintain aircraft properly, so.......
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=605549
Singapore Airlines have been there done that.
So that leaves the ones with the 2 metre holes in the side of the plane who aren't so great at landing in Bangkok.......or the ones who don't always quite make it to the runway......the ones who nearly flew into a mountain in Hong Kong once.....or..........
Actually Malaysian is looking fairly clean over the last 25 years.......although according to the Australian media Malaysians can't maintain aircraft properly, so.......
Apr 26th 2009, 11:07 pm
#14
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Re: Emirates Airlines: scary report
That's it im walking
Apr 26th 2009, 11:11 pm
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