DaveTheCat

Went to the bank today with my better half; we had realised that our savings account was in my name only, instead of being a joint account, like the chequing account we have with BMO. (The savings account was initially created 3 years ago to hold a mandatory security deposit for my first Canadian credit card; a year later, after the "secured credit card" was upgraded to "a [normal] credit card", it became our savings account, which holds the most part of our Canadian money)
The formalities were negligible -- but then the clerk said something that made us quite anxious: "You realise that, by making this a joint account, you might have it frozen should something... er... bad happen to either of you".
"I'm not following you", I said. "You mean if either of us died? or what?"
"Yes", he acknowledged. "The one who's left would see all their [joint] accounts frozen, until a succession decision has been made in a court of law".
"WHAT? But doesn't this contradict the very principle of a joint account between spouses?"
"Sorry", he replied. "This is the law here, in Quebec".

The procedure then followed its course, but we returned home quite shaken. We realised that for her nothing changed really - if I had bought it say, yesterday, when the savings account was still on my name only, she would have had to get a letter (or some kind of notarised paper) from my parents, as I have no other direct relatives; if she'd be the one to die now, whoops! she has a brother in New Zealand, a sister and a father back in Blighty - so I'd have to bring all those people together and ask them kindly to express their will to partake or not in sharing our savings -- and all this because of the Quebec laws.

So - anyone happen to know what the situation is in other provinces? is it really the same (weird) thing everywhere or is this just yet another QC idiosyncrasy?

Judy in Calgary

If you have children and if one of you dies intestate (without a will), the surviving spouse will be entitled to one third of the deceased spouse's assets, and the remaining two thirds will be divided amongst your children.

If you have no children, if you have a surviving parent or parents, and if you die intestate, your wife will be entitled to two thirds of your assets, and one third of your assets will go to your surviving parent(s).

If you have a notarial will (signed before a notary and a witness), the terms of your will come into effect immediately upon your death.

If you have a will that merely has been signed by two witnesses, neither of whom is a notary, it has to be probated (validated) in court. The probate fees are calculated as a percentage of the estate and, depending on the size of the estate, can be considerable.

If you have a will (notarial or otherwise), you can bequeath your entire estate to your spouse. In that case your spouse will inherit all of your assets, and will not have to share them with your children or, in the absence of children, with your surviving parent(s).

The benefits of a notarial will over a common or garden will are that the terms of a notarial will come into effect immediately upon the testator's death, the surviving spouse does not have to wait for the quite lengthy time that the probate process takes before he/she can access the assets he/she has inherited, and there are no probate fees.

What I've been discussing pertains to Quebec. The issues are described in more detail on the website of Chambre des notaires du Québec.

I'm not a lawyer. I recommend that you check this out with someone who has a lot more credibility than I have. However, I believe this will have pointed you in the right direction.

dingbat

You should also check out the Wills Variation Act (or your provincial version thereof) as you will be horrified to find out who can get their grubby paws on what you have worked all your life for. Ex wives and ex husbands, plus step kids that are and have always been nothing to do with you, spring to mind.:curse:

ann m

So, as soon as I've landed, unpacked my belongings and re-stocked my fridge, taken a long soak in my new hot-tub, I should get forthwith to my local notary and sort out my new Candian will ....

Does an existing UK will hold any weight in the land of maple leaves ?

Judy in Calgary

According to this website, some Canadian provinces accept international wills, and some do not. Here is another website that corroborates that point.

If I remember correctly, you are heading to Alberta, so you would need to find out whether or not Alberta is a signatory to the Convention Providing a Uniform Law on the Form of an International Will.

I looked up the Intestate Successsion Act of Alberta. It sets out provisions for the disposition of the property of an intestate. The Act does not define "intestate." The ordinary English meaning is someone who dies without a legally valid will. The text of the Act seems to assume that the reader knows the meaning of intestate. It does not clarify where wills have to have been made in order to be legally valid.

My Google searches so far have not revealed whether or not Alberta recognizes international wills. This glossary of legal terms published by a law firm in Sherwood Park, near Edmonton, includes the term "international will." The very fact that the firm includes the term in its glossary suggests to me that international wills are recognized in Alberta.

We immigrated from South Africa in 1977. We arrived with no children. We brought South African wills with us and, if memory serves me correctly, our Canadian lawyer told us they were valid. But that was thirty years ago, and my memory is fuzzy. In any event, we soon got our local lawyer to draw up new wills in anticipation of the arrival of children and various other changes in our lives.

Here is an Alberta Government publication called Saying Farewell. It's addressed primarily to senior citizens, but the information about estate planning and related topics is useful for everyone.

A very useful organization to join is Calgary Co-operative Memorial Society. Lifetime membership costs only C$20 per person. Funerals are expensive here. But CCMS, which is a not-for-profit organization, has negotiated much more reasonable group rates with local funeral service providers.

As you may know, Almost Canadian is a British solicitor who recently has moved to Calgary. He is working for a general law firm in Calgary. He has not yet passed the exams and jumped through the other hoops that he will need to complete in order to practise as a lawyer in Alberta. So, at present, he still is working as a legal assistant or something like that. Nonetheless, his law firm probably could take care of your will.

In addition to that, a Canadian lawyer whom I can recommend is:
When we met her thirty years ago, she had recently returned from a stint in the UK, where her soldier husband had been stationed for a while. She had not been allowed to work in the UK (or perhaps it was just that she had not been allowed to work as a lawyer in the UK). In any event, she had used her time in the UK to do a masters degree in law over there. I mention her stint in the UK because, while she is Canadian, she is not entirely unfamiliar with the issues of international relocation, having done it herself.

Hope that helps.

ann m

Crikey Judy - how DO you do this ?! Big thank you for the effort you have put into this reply - very helpful indeed .

DaveTheCat

Absolutely incredible - thank you, Judy, for sharing this - and many other very useful things - with us here.

JonboyE

I'm not a lawyer either.

I don't think this applies in BC. AFAIK, all wills must be probated unless all the assets to be distributed are in joint names with the beneficiaries. Also, RRSPs, RIFFS and life assurance policies will pass directly to any named beneficiaries.

Yoong

When writing out a will,also remember to appoint someone to act on your
behalf when you are incapacitated or else the government will appoint
an agent to handle your financial affairs which can be very costly.

We need a will when we are dead.
WE need Power Of Attorney for our property when
we are unable to handle our financial affairs .

http://www.canlaw.com/legalforms/pakit.htm

Yoong

Judy in Calgary

Hmmm ...... if one follows the flow of the thread from the beginning, I seem to recall that that is specific to Quebec.

JAJ

If it is just the law in Quebec (and not elsewhere) have you thought of setting up a joint bank account in another province, eg Ontario?

Biiiiink

I don't know about Canada, we don't have joint anything here, but this is exactly what happened to my father when my mother died in the UK in 2006. She had an extremely comprehensive properly-prepared will and in spite of that, it took a year for it to be signed off in the probate court or whatever it's called and for my father to get any access to what were jointly held funds in the first place. At least in Quebec a will would seem to have avoided a freezing in the first place?!

daft batty

Re joint accounts but not to do with wills. I had a joint account with my ex and when the Shithead ran off with the Trollope I went to the bank to tell them to make sure that all withdrawals had both signatures. They wouldnt do this and instead immediately froze the account!!

I arranged for my salary to be paid into another account straight away. I didnt tell Shithead.

dbd33

I'm pretty derelict with banking and have joint accounts with two exes, one deliberately, one just because I never got around to cleaning it up. One day deposited a cheque into the latter joint account and wrote another against it. The first one bounced meaning there wasn't enough money to cover the other one. I didn't know about this until some weeks later when I was surprised to discover that the bank had made it work by depositing enough money to cover the cheque I'd written. I called them to ask what that was about but they said they couldn't tell me. Months later I found out where the money came from. The ex had opened a RRSP account with a different branch of the same bank, because one account was joint they had covered the shortfall in it by cashing her RRSP; their confidentiality rules kept them from telling me what was going on but not from giving me her money.

I'm not sure this stuff is kosher but it's the colonies, what can you do?

JonboyE

This is from the BC Government/Courts website:

Do all wills and estates have to be probated or administered?

No, estates may be carried out without a Grant of Probate when all assets (for example, real estate and bank accounts) are jointly held with another person. RRSPs, pensions and insurance policies with a named beneficiary do not form part of the estate and will usually transfer directly to the survivor or named beneficiary. The need for probate is determined by the policy of the agency or financial institution which holds the asset.


I am not claiming any expertise or special knowledge with this, but I am going through the process helping someone who's father recently died. The father's will was prepared by a lawyer naming his sons as equal beneficiaries (he was a widower). This will still had to be submitted to the Courts for probate.