Tableland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ml/default.stm

761,000 in Spain, 678,000 in the US, 603,000 in Canada, etc. With a population of about 20 million, Australia now has an enormous British population in percentage terms.

1 in 10 Brits now live outside of the UK, or 10%, With Australia being the most popular destination. What's this all about then?

OzTennis

And I read recently some stats on the number of Brits who have 2nd homes abroad i.e. a good number of the 9 in 10 live part of the year abroad. On both scores I would see it more pull factors than push factors.

OzTennis

esperanza

It's because we can! I wonder how many Australians there are in the UK, it must go at least some way to balancing it out.
I also wonder how many of those Brits abroad are there permanently.
I would think that living in different countries is something that will become increasingly common for any people who can afford to do it - the world is a smaller place, we are part of a global community. It's great!

mark213

Wish i was one of the 3 pensioners in Tahiti

Tableland

I saw that too and it made me wonder....hmmmmmm. These statistics are so unreliable though. A coupleof weeks ago "they" announced that 1500 immigrants entered the UK every day, with a net gain to Britain of 500. it doesn't take a genius to work out that this means 1000 a day are leaving - and this figure was (sort of) backed up by another released at a similar time stating that approximately 350,000 people left the UK every year to settle abroad.

Today, "they" tell us that 2000 a week leave Britain, which is 104,000 a year. Frankly, I don't think they have a clue as to how many are coming in and going out.

esperanza

How would they know? When we walk out through passport control they don't ask when you are coming back. They don't record whether you hold a return ticket (and even if they did there would be those buying 2 singles who would skew the results). Lots of people declare themselves to be emigrating then come back 6 months later. Add that to all the immigrants who do their best to stay 'below the radar' (and without whom, we are told, the economy would collapse) - God knows who is here and who isn't!

(Except for me - I will definitely not be here this time next year!)

OzTennis

I suppose the question arises as to whether people just move 'because they can'.

At any given time there are 800,000 Australians living abroad (I know one) but they are a continually changing 800K. The evidence shows that a high proportion of Australians repatriate rather than remain abroad (done the 'OS' trip, backpacked etc).

You are right that in these days of lower relative cost travel, the internet, satellite etc broadening our horizons that more and more people will move abroad from both the UK and Australia in the future.

OzTennis

esperanza

Well... they would be less likely to move if they couldn't!

I do think there is an element of curiosity, what is all the fuss about, is it really better 'there' than it is here.... I'll confess to feeling some of that myself. Personally, if I settled down in the UK without ever living abroad, I would always wonder what if. If I go to Oz next year and hate it I would still be happy to have done it, just so I could settle down elsewhere without regrets.
(Although I do not plan to return to the UK if Oz doesn't work out - there are so many other countries out there! So I am exactly the kind of person who messes up all the statistics I suppose!)

DebraH

It's a slow invasion

Tableland

Well the report said if present trends continue another million will emigrateover the next five years, and this would mean a substantial number heading down under.

So maybe you're right....

mr mover

In Elizabeth ,30 k north of Adelaide i know of at least 10 people who have been here 40 plus years and never taken out Australian citizenship how many more are taken into this account, still getting a UK pension ........ mm

Tableland

But what about Australia becoming a republic? Bet that pension will get harder to draw if that ever happens....

esperanza

Possibly... one that started in the eighteenth century... So that would qualify as slow, I think!

DebraH

how long before it gets to around 3 million brits in oz I wonder

jeeva

Click on the 'Propotional' button - it would give a funny looking world.

JAJ

Why on earth should that make any difference?

JAJ

Becoming an Australian citizen does not affect UK pension rights.

OzTennis

No, I should have explained myself. 1.5 million people aren't living overseas purely because 'they can' - and I appreciate this wouldn't apply in North Korea! The motives for a lot of people living overseas have to be a bit more complex than because they can is all I'm saying.

e.g. the push factors of wanting to get away for whatever reasons and the pull factors or the lure of a new country is what I suggested. A survey of reasons for the 1.5 million moving (or 800K in Australia's case) would be illuminating.

OzTennis

Tableland

I'm not sure it will, in all honesty. the reason I wrote it is because you get your pension in Spain because of the EU "transnational network" - but why would they provide your pension if you moved to a republic? Can you get it in the US, for example (if you were a permanent resident of the US, with dual American/British nationality)?

I wasn't thinking that becoming an Australia citizen would preclude you from getting the pension, but that you get your pension there because of the Commonwealth links, etc.

keel

I think those conducting the poll (is it the BBC or a government department, is that the same thing?) would be to scared of the illuminating replies.

It doesn't take much brains to work out that somethings gone wrong with the country to make so many wish to leave.

Keel

Amazulu

Does not matter where you live. If you've paid the NI, you get the pension.

Tableland

It's the Institute for Public Policy. I think that the "West" is not moving in the direction many would prefer, and as most people can only afford to maintain a house in one country at a time, most people see this problem as unique to their country - in this case the UK. Then they get to Australia or Canada, etc., and realise that hi-tech crime, violence, rising house prices, ID cards, CCTV surveillance, rising taxation, high fuel prices are in fact a problem in all these countries and not just Britain.

BUT

Having said that, a cursory glance on this and other public forums specialising in expat-issues does tend to make one think that the British are either:

1. world class whingers
2. justified in their complaints for whatever reason.

OzTennis

British pensions are 'frozen' in some countries (incl Australia) but not in others. It is not related to EU membership or whatever. Australia is the most popular destination for British pensioners living overseas so in the test cases which have already been raised the UK government has essentially argued that it would cost them too much to have index-linked pensions for Brits in Australia, Canada etc. (Just offhand, I think they are index-linked in USA so frozen in C'W countries, index-linked in non C'W countries seems a bit strange). Providing you don't give up/lose your British citizenship you are entiteld to a frozen or an index-linked UK pension, irrespective of where you live (and the type of constitution it has).

On the lunchtime BBC News they had an item on this very topic and referred to the website (Britsabroad) and the stats mentioned in the article.

The presenter incidentally said 'you just have to look outside today to understand why 1.5 mill Brits live overseas'.

OzTennis

OzTennis

Amazulu

Well said. Australia has the same problems as the UK & most other western countries. It all boils down to moving for the pull factor & not the push.

Tableland

Thanks Oz Tennis, I am enlightened. That last line must fall under the "great British sense of humour" cited by several expats interviewed for the purposes of the BBC report on the IPP poll.

Amazulu

How many Irish live outside Ireland? Shitloads & Ireland has a booming economy & according to links posted on this newsgroup, is one of the best places in the world to live.
How many Kiwis live outside NZ? There are loads here & in the UK. NZ is also considered to be a desirable place to live.
How many Germans live in Spain & South Africa? How many Fench live in London & SE England? Loads in both cases.
People are moving & living all over the world but according to a lot pf people on this group only the UK has the problems that are causing people to leave.

Tableland

I would agree with this - and it's because this is a forum primarily used by British Expats, or those waiting to become British Expats, so a Brit-centric viewpoint is probably inevitable.

The Irish economy is doing well because of unprecedented infusion of cash from Brussels in an attempt to lift Ireland up. It looks like it worked.

OzTennis

Firstly, the Irish diaspora has actually been reversed. After a few hundred years of net emigration (I wonder if Brits understand why?), the Celtic Tiger is experiencing a reversal as many with Irish blood (I nearly said roots) return home.

Secondly, has anyone said that Britain is the only country which has residents emigrating? I've even quoted the 800K Aussies living abroad which is proportionately greater than the 1.5 mill Brits. All I did was raise the point that there must be more to it than 'because we can' as to why people move.

On the BBC lunchtime news item I mentioned they interviewed one Brit who had moved to Brisbane. He said I didn't move because of the salary (although he said in the hospital I work I am receiving 15% more for a 48 hr week than I received in the NHS for a 60-70 hr week), I moved for the lifestyle. Again, as I said earlier, I think the pull factors are more significant than the push factors.

OzTennis

Tableland

I'd agree with this because if you look at the figures most Brits are moving to warm countries (with the exception of Canada), and the warm weather is key in the "better lifestyle" debate. Who wants to be old and slipping arse over elbows on an icy pavement en route to the paper shop every day?

I would argue that pull factors are more powerful, though many Brits feel disgruntled about what they see as the "Europeanisation" of their country, so they "strike out" in the pioneer spirit because they read stories of cheaper land and lower population densities, etc. Anyone with the courage to move to another country should be respected, especially on the other side of the world.

OzTennis

Agreed about the injection of EU funds but there are some other factors at work which have also helped and meant that ROI has grown much more quickly than other EU members who received such funding, like Portugal - eg the youngest population in Europe (more open to change, higher rates of spending etc), the education system, the returning professional people (brain drain reversal), the investment from Irish Expats abroad such as in USA, and so on.

OzTennis

Barcop

106,404 people born in Australia were in the UK in 2001, some 0.19% of the population.

If there are 1.3 million Britons in Australia, that is some 2.15% of the population.

OzTennis

Yep, this is a real 'I would agree' thread. It's difficult for me although I am an Aussie with dual nationality to fully understand the motives why people leave the UK. The weather one is easy (we've had rain in this part of Scotland for virtually every day in the last 5-6 weeks and coupled with high winds every day it just gets you down! Having said that, we are well into Dec, haven't had a severe frost, any snow or a really cold day, my grass is still growing and needs to be cut and it's global warming and all that )

OzTennis

esperanza

It doesn't take a genius to work out why so many people on BE are so down on the UK - they're all leaving or left! If you asked a different set of people you would get a different set of answers.

In terms of moving to Australia, I'd agree that the 'pull' is stronger than the 'push' - if it was just the push that was the main factor then Brits would be more evenly spread out in other countries.

I don't think there is a country in the world that doesn't suffer from crime, unemployment, etc etc etc - it's not restricted to the 'western' world. The key for each individual must be to find a country where for THEM the pros outweigh the cons. And the only way to find out is to go and try it - which it seems that increasing numbers of Brits are doing. Good on them too, at least they are doing something about it rather than sitting on their ar$es in the UK.

Should remember also that there are hundreds of thousands of people who would give their right arm to be in the UK - it is not the miserable hellhole that some people seem to see it as. Got quite a lot going for it really! Just not weather...

esperanza

Is that 2.5% of the UK population is in Australia, or Brits in Oz make up 2.5% of the Australian population? I'm guessing the latter?
Also I wonder where the figures came from - is it people with visas, or everyone? (Not arguing with them, just interested to know what they really mean)

OzTennis

Interesting stats - basically Brits are 11 or 12 times more prevalent in Australia than vice-versa!

I meant to add earlier that another important emigrating factor is what I call the 'Neighbours/Home and Away/A Place in the Sun' factor (which again is a Pull factor). Although in my case East Enders/Corrie would be a Push factor!

OzTennis

Tableland

I might be well off course here, but I have a feeling that many British people see Australia as what Britain used to be like. I wonder if they see Australia as a more homogeneous society and one without the "corrupting" influence of the EU. I stress that I'm not saying this is my view, but "bloody Brussels" is often mentioned round these parts, and because the EU's influence in Britain has risen in conjunction with the rise in crime and corruption in the country, many Brits pin the blame on Europe, and go to Australia because "they're like us".

Also, people regularly report how "friendly" Australians and Canadian are, and paint a sepia-toned 1950s picture of life in these countries, compared with what they see as a fairly advanced industrial and squashed-together Britain.
Chuck in the warm weather and to many Brits it's a no-brainer, as they say Stateside.

I would say that main causes for leaving are:

1. Weather
2. Too many people
3. Expensive houses/fuel
4. "bloody Brussels"

All just thoughts, of course.

OzTennis

On your last point I'd agree, it's just that most of those who would give their right arm to be in the UK are Polish, Slovak, Albanian, ........... and soon to be Bulgarian, Romanian, Turkish etc. (please not the green cheesy)

In their case the main reason for emigrating is Push factors!

OzTennis

esperanza

Interesting... I hardly ever hear about 'bloody brussels'. Don't think EU can be blamed for rises in crime/corruption, but the human rights thing does my head in - rapists being compensated for time served, druggies compensated for going cold-turkey, illegal immigrants given colour tvs, etc etc. Not that I'm leaving because of those things, but I will be glad to leave it behind.
Oztennis - do you think Australians are "like us"? The more I find out the more I think that it will be a bit of a culture shock for me when I arrive there.

OzTennis

Good points! As I said earlier the Neighbours/Home and Away type factor. Life looks a lot easier in these soaps. I'm sure it must always be felt by Brits that there is more deference to class and breeding in the UK and that countries like Australia are more egalitarian where it is easier to make it if you are prepared to have a go (I'm not saying this is actually true but a perception).

For example, I witnessed the farce last night of the BBC Sports Personality Award if ever proof of deference to 'class' was needed. For those who don't know it was won by Dame Zara Phillips - it was supposedly voted on by the great British public and this is what they came up with. A royal who participates in a tiny minority sport only open to the rich and privileged. How Darren Clarke didn't win it (as a symbol of the Ryder Cup team and after all he went through) told me a lot. St Helens were team of the year and their Aussie coach was coach of the year - lots of votes from St Helens area methinks!

OzTennis

Tableland

Europe can't be blamed for everything, and has brought many benefits to Britain (the Human Rights Act not one of them of course). Actually, I'm not sure the full gravity of "no borders" in Europe has really sunk in with many Brits - or maybe it has and that explains the thousands leaving every week.....

It's a one-way street remember, because apart from those with the bickies to invest and buy 324 properties in Poland and watch their value soar, continental Europe is out of reach to most Brits because they only speak English. However, Britain is Destination Numero Uno for most Europeans because English is the one language they can all speak apart from their native languages.

So the "no borders" in the EU benefits some (the rich, of course, and eastern Europeans) more than it benefits others (the poor, the British).