Nyb

I know the first rule of any Visa application is to always tell the truth,
but I've got a problem.
About 20 years ago I received a £10 fine for being drunk and disorderly. In
England this counts as a criminal offence and I was fully prepared to put
this on my DS-230 form. However my police certificate has come back clean,
the police themselves have said it's been fully scrubbed from the system and
the court that would have this on record have said it would be impossible to
find unless I knew the exact date of when this happened, which I don't.
So what to do?
Should I just answer no in the knowledge that there is virtually no
probability of this offence being discovered.
Or do I answer yes giving as much detail as possible without being able to
provide any 'official' evidence.

Answering no really worries me because I would be knowingly perjuring
myself, but I'm worried that if I answer yes that this might seriously
affect my chances of being approved. I don't know how big a deal they would
make of an offence of this nature that happened 20 years ago. Has anyone
else been successfully approved after admitting to a minor indiscretion like
this?

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated, because I'm having
sleepless nights over this.

Thanks in advance.

Just Jenney

There have been other threads on this sort of thing in the past -- someone is convicted of something-or-other, pays a fine, etc., and the conviction is wiped clean from their record after "X" number of years.

From my recollection, the general consensus regarding this sort of matter is to tell the truth, only the truth, and nothing but the truth.

I'm NOT an expert by any means, but telling the truth seems to be good advice to me. Given the offense (drunk & disorderly is NOT a big deal) and fine (£10?!?) I highly doubt what you did would raise an eyebrow. But IF it should come to light that you answered "no" when technically you should've answered "yes" -- THAT might raise some eyebrows. It might make them wonder what else you're hiding.

In other words, err on the side of caution. The fact that it is not on your police record any longer works in your favor, even if you tell the truth. And if you're really losing sleep over this, you'll probably rest easier knowing you came clean rather than lying about it.

Just my 2¢...

~ Jenney

Andy Platt

"NYB" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
k...
    > I know the first rule of any Visa application is to always tell the truth,
    > but I've got a problem.
    > About 20 years ago I received a £10 fine for being drunk and disorderly.
In
    > England this counts as a criminal offence and I was fully prepared to put
    > this on my DS-230 form. However my police certificate has come back clean,
    > the police themselves have said it's been fully scrubbed from the system
and
    > the court that would have this on record have said it would be impossible
to
    > find unless I knew the exact date of when this happened, which I don't.
    > So what to do?
    > Should I just answer no in the knowledge that there is virtually no
    > probability of this offence being discovered.
    > Or do I answer yes giving as much detail as possible without being able to
    > provide any 'official' evidence.
    > Answering no really worries me because I would be knowingly perjuring
    > myself, but I'm worried that if I answer yes that this might seriously
    > affect my chances of being approved. I don't know how big a deal they
would
    > make of an offence of this nature that happened 20 years ago. Has anyone
    > else been successfully approved after admitting to a minor indiscretion
like
    > this?
    > Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated, because I'm having
    > sleepless nights over this.

You are on your own here really - you know the rules, tell the truth. You
also believe that there is no way for them to find out about this unless you
tell them because they certainly aren't going to go around to every court in
the UK and ask! I will say, though, that people in your position have
'fessed up to these. The problem with that is that they are often asked to
provide the court details to show there were no (illicit) drugs involved
which is a little paranoid.

It reminds me a little of a discussion we had about the I-485 question that
relates to you ever committing certain offences for which you have never bee
n arrested, charged or so on. I call this the "stupidity" test. Your problem
is a lot more murky than that though.

Andy.

--
I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.

Patrick

Hi,

You might as well be truthful as this wont come back and bite you on the ass. The truth of the matter is that this shouldn't effect you anyway - I doubt that drunk and disorderly has any element of moral terpitude in it and if it does you are well covered by clause (ii) because you weren't sentenced to any jail time of any sort.

Tell the truth and it will protect you, lie and it will wait around every unsuspecting corner. Now go to sleep for God's sake.

Patrick

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Do disclose this. In any case, it does not seem to be an offense that would bar admissibility -- it is probably not a "crime involving moral turpitude" [CIMT is a "term of art" and I use "probably" because I have not seen the actual statute under which you were convicted]. Even if a CIMT, it would fall under the "petty offense" exception given the fact of no jail time and the 10 pound fine.

Although your police record is "clean" you never know what might be floating around in some database somewhere that will somehow make it into a US goverment database.

Shannon

I had exactly the same experience with an old conviction for trespass associated with a political protest I was involved in as a student. My police certificate came back clear. I gave them details of the offence, what the fine was, that it was now expunged from my record etc. No-one batted an eyelid.

Shannon

rogerpenycate

My personal opinion is that you will have no problem.
I had a drink driving conviction (no accident or injuries) way back in 1974.
I put it on my form and as Shannon said "no one batted an eyelid"

Marky B

Tell the truth.

If it is worrying you at this stage, how much will it play on your mind if you do get away with it. You'll always worry about it comming out at a later date.

Nyb

Thanks for the input folks, I'm wondering if I'm worrying over nothing,
certainly hearing from you guys has put my mind at ease somewhat. I've
decided to own up and throw myself on the mercy of the consulate.

Thanks again.

Sean

Homesick Kiwi

Slightly off topic but it might help alay your fears......
am waiting for k1 approval at the moment.........so I thought I would
apply for a tourist visa to visit my partner in the states.......
I live in england but am from new zealand....I too have been dreading
telling the us embassy that I have 11, yes thats eleven convictions
from 8-12 years ago....without boring anyone with the details they
were all handled with a fine, but the one that bothered me the most
was assault on a policeman........
anyway, we both felt that by applying for a tourist visa would be a
good way to see if the k1 was worth pursuing.......
I completed the application, all 22 pages of it (just for a tourist
visa) and was somewhat dissappointed when it came back from the
embassy with a note to ring for a interview.......interview was made
and then the day arrived, nearly didnt go because believe me, I have
read everything there is to read on the INS and convictions and I felt
it was probably a waste of time.....one other thing that was bothering
me was the small fact of a holiday in hawaii 2 years ago on the
VWP......yes visa fraud as well......
anyway........3 hours of waiting round and my number was
called........with a sligh queesy feeling I approached the counter to
be greeted by a pleasant middle aged man.......he asked me to list my
convictions, which I did, he then asked if I had sent in the court
records which I had but they hadnt kept a copy, so I gave him
mine........he asked me about a couple of them which I
explained......said I didnt seem like the type and it would be a good
idea to stay away from alcohol.....he then asked why I had ticked yes
to Q33(4) and I explained how I had flown to hawaii on the VWP and now
I realised I should have applied for a visa, he said "did they send
you home?" I said no, he stamped my passport and said enjoy your
stay........so the consular officer said why tick yes? Are you just
being honest? Said yes.........end of story, all in all it took about
10 minutes, and there were some people up there for a long long time
getting a good grilling.....the officer, who turned out to be the vice
consul......said I see no reason based on the records you submitted to
deny your visa.......you can pick up your 10 year B2 visa and passport
in 15 min, have a nice day...........it still hasnt sunk in.........
So yeah.........be absolutely honest......its worth it........
Course I have yet to brave the POE.....

Nyb

Thanks for posting this Andy, I feel better already. Incidentally my brother
went the other way, he's been in New Zealand for a year and loves it. He
says it's the most beautiful country on earth. He went down to follow the
England cricket team and never came back!

Sean


"homesick kiwi" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Slightly off topic but it might help alay your fears......
    > am waiting for k1 approval at the moment.........so I thought I would
    > apply for a tourist visa to visit my partner in the states.......
    > I live in england but am from new zealand....I too have been dreading
    > telling the us embassy that I have 11, yes thats eleven convictions
    > from 8-12 years ago....without boring anyone with the details they
    > were all handled with a fine, but the one that bothered me the most
    > was assault on a policeman........
    > anyway, we both felt that by applying for a tourist visa would be a
    > good way to see if the k1 was worth pursuing.......
    > I completed the application, all 22 pages of it (just for a tourist
    > visa) and was somewhat dissappointed when it came back from the
    > embassy with a note to ring for a interview.......interview was made
    > and then the day arrived, nearly didnt go because believe me, I have
    > read everything there is to read on the INS and convictions and I felt
    > it was probably a waste of time.....one other thing that was bothering
    > me was the small fact of a holiday in hawaii 2 years ago on the
    > VWP......yes visa fraud as well......
    > anyway........3 hours of waiting round and my number was
    > called........with a sligh queesy feeling I approached the counter to
    > be greeted by a pleasant middle aged man.......he asked me to list my
    > convictions, which I did, he then asked if I had sent in the court
    > records which I had but they hadnt kept a copy, so I gave him
    > mine........he asked me about a couple of them which I
    > explained......said I didnt seem like the type and it would be a good
    > idea to stay away from alcohol.....he then asked why I had ticked yes
    > to Q33(4) and I explained how I had flown to hawaii on the VWP and now
    > I realised I should have applied for a visa, he said "did they send
    > you home?" I said no, he stamped my passport and said enjoy your
    > stay........so the consular officer said why tick yes? Are you just
    > being honest? Said yes.........end of story, all in all it took about
    > 10 minutes, and there were some people up there for a long long time
    > getting a good grilling.....the officer, who turned out to be the vice
    > consul......said I see no reason based on the records you submitted to
    > deny your visa.......you can pick up your 10 year B2 visa and passport
    > in 15 min, have a nice day...........it still hasnt sunk in.........
    > So yeah.........be absolutely honest......its worth it........
    > Course I have yet to brave the POE.....

Homesick Kiwi

Glad it helped Sean, your brother is a wise man!!
Every case is different but it would pay to get a letter from the
court that handled your case stating that the cert. of conviction is
unavailable....the rehabilitation of offenders act doesnt apply to the
u.s.
Crimes of Moral Turpitude is a funny old thing, it seems to be unique
to the states and of course their judicial system is different to the
rest of the world and is even different state to state. CMT is not
written in statute and is entirely dependant on the case.......so in
theory, and in practice, 2 assault cases, one could be judged CMT but
the other not......I researched assault on police fairly well and
could not find one recorded case were it was judged a CMT, I dont know
why, perhaps its considered a hazard of the job?
I feel that while just about everything you read to do with
convictions and the INS fills you with fear its there primarily as a
backstop for the embassy.......they realise we are all human and
sometimes do stupid things, I was certain my application would be
refused, or at the very least be referred to the INS for a waiver, but
because I was honest and upfront I now get to spend xmas with my
fiancee......i would guess that the embassy people are very good at
reading people and Im sure they are privy to more information about
ourselves than we might know...........anyway, good luck with your
application.........