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Winston Churchill and Iran

Winston Churchill and Iran

Old Jan 10th 2009, 6:53 am
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Default Winston Churchill and Iran

I was reading an article recently about how the Iranian people feel about Britain and British people - and i came across some background information about Winston Churchill and some really amazing stuff ... does anybody know anything about this (see below) and can you direct me to research material on this subject matter that is discussed regarding Churchill and the Russians handed back to Stalin?

Also why do Iranians hate british so much? they hate the brits much much deeper than they hate yanks. It is hard to understand.

Thank you very much, i appreciate it.
Kathy

http://www.writersviews.com/post/mi/...hurchilll.html

In the National Archives in Washington there exists an unedited of a film which is a footage taken by an American army camera unit at a prisoner of war camp in southern Germany in February 1946 where anti-Communist Russian civilians were treated like prisoners and were forced to return to Russia based on an agreement that Churchill had agreed with Stalin. The agreement was to hand over all anti-communist Russian civilians for prompt execution.

These 140,000 men, women, and children did not survived to see 1947.

They were non-combatants and the only crime they had committed was to be anti-Communist. Most had escaped Russia after witnessing their family members murdered for no reason whatsoever and lived in exile for fear of persecution.

Not all British agreed with Churchill's decision.

The widely admired and respected British General Harold Alexander refused to obey Churchill's direct orders to hand over these anti-Communist Russians to Stalin after the World War II. He was then made Governor-General of Canada so that Churchill can proceed to get his purposes accomplished which was the handing over of 140,000 people to the Soviet army without any delay or anyone finding out what he had to agreed with Stalin.

the rest of the article is still at http://www.writersviews.com/post/mi/...hurchilll.html
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 9:23 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

am not sure about the content here, but i think it's a bit too general to say that Iranians hate the british or the americans. i think what you'll find is that the image the 'west' has of iran (and dare i say, most of the middle east) is somewhat clouded by the media and the rhetoric that comes out of government mouth pieces. most of the real people (the average 'joe' on the streets) doesn't hate anyone any more or less than anyone in the 'west'.

when you read pieces about a country that's an apparent summation of what all the people of that country feel, i think you need to take a more critical view before asking those questions. perhaps even ask the question, does everything that comes from my governments mouth precisely represent the feelings held by the people around me? (does gordon speak for me and my feelings?) once you've answered that question, remember that in the middle east, a lot of the government spokesmen are not even chosen by the people they purport (spelling) to represent. (actually, Bush wasn't chosen the first time either...)

personally, as well as from others who have visited iran, the iranians i've met have all been perfectly nice, normal people who are more interested in you, the individual, than what some idiot at government level thinks.

as for the stuff about churchill and stalin, simple matter that, most poli's (irrespective of race, creed, affiliation, religion, etc.) should be put up against the wall.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 10:27 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
I was reading an article recently about how the Iranian people feel about Britain and British people - and i came across some background information about Winston Churchill and some really amazing stuff ... does anybody know anything about this (see below) and can you direct me to research material on this subject matter that is discussed regarding Churchill and the Russians handed back to Stalin?

Also why do Iranians hate british so much? they hate the brits much much deeper than they hate yanks. It is hard to understand.

Thank you very much, i appreciate it.
Kathy

http://www.writersviews.com/post/mi/...hurchilll.html

In the National Archives in Washington there exists an unedited of a film which is a footage taken by an American army camera unit at a prisoner of war camp in southern Germany in February 1946 where anti-Communist Russian civilians were treated like prisoners and were forced to return to Russia based on an agreement that Churchill had agreed with Stalin. The agreement was to hand over all anti-communist Russian civilians for prompt execution.

These 140,000 men, women, and children did not survived to see 1947.

They were non-combatants and the only crime they had committed was to be anti-Communist. Most had escaped Russia after witnessing their family members murdered for no reason whatsoever and lived in exile for fear of persecution.

Not all British agreed with Churchill's decision.

The widely admired and respected British General Harold Alexander refused to obey Churchill's direct orders to hand over these anti-Communist Russians to Stalin after the World War II. He was then made Governor-General of Canada so that Churchill can proceed to get his purposes accomplished which was the handing over of 140,000 people to the Soviet army without any delay or anyone finding out what he had to agreed with Stalin.

the rest of the article is still at http://www.writersviews.com/post/mi/...hurchilll.html
Hi Kathy,

I think there's a bit more to it than that article implies but it wouldn't surprise me if it were substantially true.

I like the quote "Not all British (sic) agreed with Churchill's decision".......... I suspect if they had known the full facts, NONE of the people of Britain would have agreed (assuming the basic story is accurate).

There was also the post-war reappraisal of Churchill to bear in mind - the man who led the country through its 'darkest hour' was summarily kicked out of office at the General Election...........

He was also a fully-paid-up, card-carrying life member of The British Zionists Club.

One of those people who, with history and reflection to help us, has been reappraised somewhat.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 1:19 pm
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

I believe that repatriation of prisoners was something that was hashed out at Yalta.

Churchill was very wary of Stalin. In one of those quirks of history, the Americans were as (or more) wary of Churchill (who in their view, possibly correctly, would seek the continuation of the British Empire) as Stalin.

There's a very interesting, and less hyperbolic, account here.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 10:26 pm
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

still.unsure
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Your point is quite valid and logical. But every iranian i have ever met in London, Dublin, Virginia, and Southern California, seem to hate the british so much. Almost all of them accuse Britain of steeling Iranian oil for 60 years. Also they all recommend the book ALL THE SHAH'S MEN by Stephen Kinzer in which he also regards the British as having committed atrocities against iranians and steeling their oil and attacking their country in the WWI and WWII for absolutely no reason whatsoever, he claims. Thanks Still.Unsure.

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---------

I never knew that Churchill was a zionist card carrying member ... wow - thank you. How do you know this? I read about NeoConservatives, Cabal and Zionists here ..

http://www.writersviews.com/post/pol...con-cabal.html

For the first time.

The most interesting piece of this article for me was:

Irving Kristol's most famous quote is: "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work."

Thank you Dean - i learn something today.

Typical
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Thank you - nice link, interesting.

Thank you all
Kathy

Last edited by kathy2009; Jan 10th 2009 at 10:34 pm.
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 4:06 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
still.unsure
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Your point is quite valid and logical. But every iranian i have ever met in London, Dublin, Virginia, and Southern California, seem to hate the british so much. Almost all of them accuse Britain of steeling Iranian oil for 60 years. Also they all recommend the book ALL THE SHAH'S MEN by Stephen Kinzer in which he also regards the British as having committed atrocities against iranians and steeling their oil and attacking their country in the WWI and WWII for absolutely no reason whatsoever, he claims. Thanks Still.Unsure.
again, i'd probably examine the situation they (your Iranian sources) are in a little more critically. i've never met more passionate patriots for any country than those i have met living outside of it. (brits, aussies, yanks, french, swedes, thai, taiwanese, malays, etc.) also, those citizens who tend to live outside of a country tend (on the whole, not universally) to 'reflect' more on their country of origin and its place in the world to help better understand themselves outside of it. i appreciate the point in regards to 'all the shah's men' and a similiar sentiment (almost) is even in more modern pieces such as the film persopolis (though of recent times).

as an aside, there's a joke i was once told about dubai and its expats; it had been particularly dry in dubai for a while and at friday prayers, the imams at several mosques asked the congregation to pray for rain. sure enough, they all did. the following day, it rained in tehran.
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 8:45 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Again - you have a good point. People outside of their country sure become patriotic. I know I am the same to some degree.

But you did not mention if britain has taken iranian oil for 60 years or not as the book ALL THE SHAHS MEN suggest? did britain steel iranian oil, rob them of their natural resources, deprive their children of their birth rights, as the book suggests?

also, i can never get anyone from britain or US to actually admit to any of these things officially ... why? is there something to these accusations?

kathy
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 8:54 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
Again - you have a good point. People outside of their country sure become patriotic. I know I am the same to some degree.

But you did not mention if britain has taken iranian oil for 60 years or not as the book ALL THE SHAHS MEN suggest? did britain steel iranian oil, rob them of their natural resources, deprive their children of their birth rights, as the book suggests?

also, i can never get anyone from britain or US to actually admit to any of these things officially ... why? is there something to these accusations?

kathy
where are you from kathy?
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 8:57 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
also, i can never get anyone from britain or US to actually admit to any of these things officially ... why? is there something to these accusations?

kathy
What on earth makes you think that you would ever get an "official" answer to that question, never mind the truth? And you certainly won't get an official answer on this forum...
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 9:06 am
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met a fair few iranians both here and in the uk, had lunch at an iranian place the other day and i can honestly say i've never once felt or been told that iranians hate brits.........utter media piffle
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 9:15 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
Again - you have a good point. People outside of their country sure become patriotic. I know I am the same to some degree.

But you did not mention if britain has taken iranian oil for 60 years or not as the book ALL THE SHAHS MEN suggest? did britain steel iranian oil, rob them of their natural resources, deprive their children of their birth rights, as the book suggests?

also, i can never get anyone from britain or US to actually admit to any of these things officially ... why? is there something to these accusations?

kathy
um, ok, yes, probably. maybe britain, the US or possibly all of the western world took turns doing iran over, i don't know for a fact. to be honest, any iranian i've met hasn't been too concerned with what foreign powers did to iran in the past but more the legacy of the islamic revolution, the changes since the 70's, the 120%+ annual inflation currently experienced and the day-to-day paradoxes of the country which has the highest (or second highest) rate of sex-change operations and rhinoplasty in the world.

and as a citizen of one of those countries you've mentioned, my 'official' reply is that we're probably responsible for screwing over an incredibly disproportionate amount of the planets people for nothing more than expansionism and selfish gains.
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 10:03 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
met a fair few iranians both here and in the uk, had lunch at an iranian place the other day and i can honestly say i've never once felt or been told that iranians hate brits.........utter media piffle
I know a few Iranians and none of them ever told me this. In fact most of them seem to respect Britain a lot more than the USA.

N.
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 12:23 pm
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
.... i came across some background information about Winston Churchill and some really amazing stuff ... does anybody know anything about this (see below) and can you direct me to research material on this subject matter that is discussed regarding Churchill and the Russians handed back to Stalin?
Kathy, this is the widely documented betrayal of the cossacks at Lienz and formed the storyline for the bad guy in the Bond film Goldeneye. Google is your friend.

Winston Churchill was also a key player in the creation of the state of Israel as he was Colonial Secretary in the early 1920s and therefore responsible for the implementation of the Balfour Declaration (a deal made with European Jewish bankers to bail out the UK from it's debt from the first world war). Churchill however made a point of clarifying the intention - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_White_Paper - which seems to indicate that what has actually happened was not the intent, from his point of view anyway.

Churchill was also instrumental in the set up of Anglo-Persian Oil (now BP) which the Persians came to widely (and quite rightly) resent as a very bad deal for Persia. In 1953, when it looked as though the Iranian government would take control of their own oil fields, the UK and US intervened to depose the democratically elected government of Iran and install an unpopular pro-western dictator.

It's not surprising that they don't trust us....

If you really want to understand you'll need to read a lot more history, it goes a long way back - try Bernard Lewis book "The Middle East".
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Old Jan 11th 2009, 1:26 pm
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Originally Posted by kathy2009 View Post
still.unsure

Irving Kristol's most famous quote is: "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work."

Thank you Dean - i learn something today.

Typical
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Thank you - nice link, interesting.

Thank you all
Kathy
Could our Irving have lifted his quote from someone else perhaps?

'The law is equal before all of us; but we are not all equal before the law. Virtually there is one law for the rich and another for the poor, one law for the cunning and another for the simple, one law for the forceful and another for the feeble, one law for the ignorant and another for the learned, one law for the brave and another for the timid, and within family limits one law for the parent and no law at all for the child.'

George Bernard Shaw.
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Old Jan 12th 2009, 6:02 am
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Default Re: Winston Churchill and Iran

Thank you all for all the interesting comments. Quite an education for me.

SPUGSY - I am Irish (born in Limerick) now living in US.

DTFC - wooowww - thank you very much about your comments - i never knew about Winston Churchill was also a key player ... Colonial Secretary in the early 1920s ... responsible for the implementation of the Balfour Declaration ...

I have long term iranian friends from college days and have met many of their friends at their house parties over the years. I would tell you that from my experiences that iranians truely resent what britain has done to iranians. May be because they are polite people and don't want to be publically rude, they refuse to tell you how they really feel. But in my opinion for my experiences with many many iranians, i would say that deep inside iranians hate or resent the british "crimes" or "atrocities" commited against them.

Even if you don't want to believe it and if your iranian friends don't want to tell you, I honestly believe in my experiences that they do resent what britain has done - deeply. Very deeply.

When iranians are among themselves with few or no "foreigners" around, they do speak of britain and of Churchill (a man they hate soooooo much) and they talk about how unfair the british are for attacking, invading, and occupying their country in both first world war and second world war for no reason whatsoever. I have heard this soooo many times. They maintain that iran has never done anything wrong to britain, but the british have destroyed they prospects for a good life and a successful country in the middle east.

Also, i am told by many Irish and british friends who traveled to iran (and by the way, fell in love with Iran, including MP Clare Short) that you cannot go to any of the small town in Iran and not hear the old men telling the children of the horrible atrocities that the british have commited against iranians - and they claim - that the british robbed their children of their birthrights, deprived their nation of their natural resources, and are responsible for the paradox of the life they should have had but did not.

I once heard an iranian in London say some pretty horrible things that he wished he could do to britain- but what frightened me was that his comments were not just idle threats from a stupid weakman who talks big with a small pants - that man was quite scarey because he was a highly intellectual individual and highly, highly educated and knowledgeable about many things. I hope one day he does not do anything nasty to britain. 99.99% of people you meet talk bull-$hit but this man - ahh there was something chilling about him. He was more intelligent than most average people you meet studying PHD in biochemistry at London Uni.

Let's hope iranians forget and may be in the future forgive britain for what it has done to it in the past.

Thanks for all your comments - i learned a few things from all of you.

warmest regards,
Kathy

Last edited by kathy2009; Jan 12th 2009 at 6:04 am.
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