Bipat

Just a reply that is not suitable for a different thread.
Regarding the famines in India.
There have been droughts since 1947 but nothing like previous famines.

The Bengal Famine: How the British engineered the worst genocide in human history for profit

DXBtoDOH

Might want to read the comments to the article you linked. Which isn't a properly cited, legitimate historical account but someone's rantings and obviously very biased piece of writing.

You obviously have issues.

Let me see. What is India? A country which I love and admire, but which I still readily admits has the following problems:

Extraordinary social and economic gulfs between the very rich and the vast majority of the population, which preceded the British and which, despite nearly 70 years of independence, persists. Check.

Extreme religious divisions and periodic sectarian violence between Muslims and Hindus, which had nothing to do with the British. Check.

Deep, entrenched caste system which the British had nothing to do with. Check.

Extremely dysfunctional politics, nothing to do with the British. Check.

A society where women are routinely raped and abused. Check.

I could go on, couldn't I?

What about the West?

Highest standard of living in the world? Check.

Least corrupt government with the most reliable and involved citizenry? Check.

Most reliable and free press? Check.

Best health care in the world? Check.

Best record for eliminating historical discrimination against women and bringing them as full equal partners into society? Check (although I'm sure we all agree there's some room for improvement but it's vastly better than elsewhere).

Best record for eliminating previous social and even political discrimination against disenfranchised groups such as homosexuals? Check.

Best treatment for non-native members of their own society, such as recent immigrant groups and ethnic minorities? Check.

Greatest range of higher quality social and welfare programmes offered to disenfranchised/poorer sectors of society? Check.

Religious dogma and theocracy has been reduced to little more than cultural window dressing rather than an oppressive factor? Check (even in the US this has largely become the reality).

Willingness to have open dialogues over pass crimes committed by own society, whether against their own people or other people? Check.

The place where the whole world wants to move to if given the chance? Check.

Ta ta. Now off for drinks. Enjoy your day wallowing in misery.

Bipat

I think you have put a great many issues. Hope I am allowed to answer.

Of course India has problems who has denied it, just why only post about the bad and not the good?

1) Yes gulfs between rich and poor, as in every country, including USA. "Preceding the British", what was Britain like regarding rich and poor 200 years ago?

2) Yes, riots have occurred. One small point, the British introduced a different law scheme for Muslims-- a modified Sharia Law. No politician since would change it because of vote loss.

3) Castism is illegal, yes prejudice exists still. Again it is mostly in the poorer village areas. Do you know the origin of 'caste'-- job related distinctions? Present PM is of lowly background --landslide victory last election.

4) A true democracy --see 3)

5) Women are not routinely raped.
Yes there is too much domestic violence as there is in UK and elsewhere in Europe and USA.

Why to blacken India on rape do they have to omit the facts? - Telegraph

I will leave others to comment on your view of the West, are you describing UK or all Western countries? There are great differences between them.

Not sure what you meant about "wallowing in misery"--in Uk at the moment and 'homesick' for India, but flights are booked. I will now walk to the shops through the local park---wouldn't do that after dark! Would happily walk anytime in our Indian town though.

You wanted a different link about the Bengal famine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

mikewot

That's because you are not female, if you were you wouldn't dare in the most rapist country of the world.

Bipat

I am female.

Are you are referring to the UK or USA? Did you read the link in post 3?

With respect your post is silly. Have you statistics for the entire world?

mikewot

One persons personal view, many historians disagree with this view.
Anyway it is past, done, finished. None of us were even alive when it occurred, much less participated.
Perhaps CMD will apologise for it. Yawn.

Bipat

Yes one view, I also put a wikipedia link, as most seem to approve of that.

OH was alive, parents in law, great uncles, aunts in L, were alive. Although all lived in South India.
Many on BE Forum were alive. (I have seen ages quoted!)
As you say it is in the past, my reference to it was in answer to a post on another thread.
Anyway you are yawning--you youngsters need your sleep Then you can dream up some more bad things to say

Dubaiexile

With regards to famines I refer too my comments in a previous post;

Canals and irrigation: 75000 miles of canals were constructed in the colonial era. Now that's something! Waters of five rivers (the Jhelum, the Chenab, the Ravi, the Sutlej, and the Beas) were harnessed to transform 6 million acres of desert into richest agricultural regions in asia (Punjab). Punjab was chosen for green revolution later on for its abundant water supply. Plenty of irrigation works in Ganges and Godavari by Proby Cautley and Arthur Cotton
Arthur Cotton: Revered in the state of Andhra Pradesh for his irrigation works in Godavari turning the area into rice bowl of the state. Museums and statues exist in India and his birthday is celebrated every year


As for rape, the documentation and outrage in the press over the last year with regards to this speaks volumes, and the latest one where 2 sisters were ordered to be raped by a village council for something their brother had done (ran off with a woman from a higher caste), but as you said that is a rural problem.....but it does not make it ok.

I am not responding in this way to be antagonistic, or racist, it just happens that I disagree with your statements, as it seems do others!

Bahtatboy

Because the very title of your thread demands that a comparison is made between the constituent parts of the West and, in this case, India (which topic is whence the argument sprung). On all the constituent parts cited, the West is superior. You may be able to give a couple of examples of India being superior to the West (I don't know what they might be -- the nuclear family, perhaps?), but that would still leave the vast preponderance of parts demonstrating the superiority. If you don't like to hear an analysis of the facts, you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

And if--as you seem to be arguing--that it isn't the case, where are the queues of both non-Indian-origin Brits and Indian-origin Brits (and other westerners) desperate to set up a new life in the sub-continent?

I've been. It shocked me. I don't want to go back. That's just a personal view of a brief snapshot, but the facts bear me out. Maybe there are nice places, but--as with Saudi--the "welcome" at the airport is enough. Sorry to sound harsh, but you did ask...

mikewot

I am 58 so hardly a youngster and 1943 was way before my time.
The reason I am yawing is that I am bored and struggling to see any relevance to the ME. Also you need to define 'Superior'. Do you mean less disease, malnutrition, less childbirth deaths, very sanitary and hygienic with potable water for all to drink? In that sense then Western countries knock spots off many other countries in the world. Or do you mean something else entirely?

Bipat

Many of the British in India are revered. Including totally unknown people, teachers, lecturers etc. They were capable of knowing the people on the ground were answerable to the Government and not free to behave as they wished.
The great works that were done, were for the benefit of the British, including roads, rails etc. they have been greatly enhanced since.

Yes there were some dreadful rape cases recently and have been publicised, the law regarding domestic violence was amended to be more strict. The last case you mentioned was bizarre and the 3 village elders have been arrested.
(A real problem in India that you have not mentioned is policing, which needs a complete overhaul. Look up Kiran Bedi the retired woman Chief police officer and read what she has to say).

Can you explain why such cases are publicised in UK newspapers and similar cases happening in UK are not publicised in India??

Yes obviously some others on this part of the Forum disagree with me.
I do have a slight advantage of reading local newspapers, watching local TV and talking to people who actually live there.

Bipat

I started this thread as my answer to a post about was deleted and a new thread suggested.

You should read the Goa part of BE and the multiple complaints because of the Indian laws not allowing foreigners to buy property!! It is a popular holiday destination and North Goa has been ruined. We live in Karnataka south of Goa.

There has been a great move for Indian origin British and USA people to move back. You will have to take my word for it-- no time to get a link.

Many others do not agree with your "brief snapshot", read the main India Forum-- Indiamike.

Bahtatboy

Because they don't happen in UK?

Not to say that other appalling things don't happen--Rochdale, for example--but when was the last time in UK a perpetrator's sisters were sentenced to be raped (also consider that the "perpetrator" had merely run off with someone of a higher social standing)? Never.

As to Rochdale-like abhorrences, perhaps the press in India doesn't find them remarkable.

Bipat

I started this thread as you suggested, having deleted my answer to a post. The word "superior" was taken from the implications in the previous thread regarding the "West" and all countries that are not in the "West".
You may be bored, I am delaying a yearly cutting of a bl***y British hedge.
So no need to reply.

Bahtatboy

This from the BBC's Rajini Vaidyanathan:

Why would you leave the West for India? - BBC News

"The latest figures for the UK, for example, show that a record 30,000 people left Britain to make a life in India in 2010, a figure which is likely to have risen since." The article was published in late October.

Obviously she has access to better figures than those published by the ONS. 15,000 total in 2010, and 119,000 from 2003-2012.

Still more than I expected, I must admit.