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-   -   Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title? (https://britishexpats.com/forum/sand-pit-116/vettel-v-alonso-who-deserves-title-777933/)

Victor Meldrew Nov 17th 2012 4:02 pm

Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
Vettel 10 points ahead, looking likely to win

Alonso - better driver - car not as good as RB

In the past Alonso has behaved like a spoilt child, blaming everything/everyone but himself for his failings. Now it seems Vettel has taken that mantle.

Alonso, this year seems to have matured a little and, considering the times his races have been ended by the mistakes of others, he has responded very calmly.

Vettel's car is undoubtedly superior, and probably with any of the top drivers in it, would have achieved the same.

Who deserves the title? - I reckon Alonso due to an improved attitude and the fact he has achieved more relatively speaking in a less powerful car.

I hope he does well in the next 2 races and that Vettel spits his dummy out. Then we wont have to watch him stick that boney index finger in the air again this year.

Charismatic Nov 18th 2012 12:17 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
Alonso has been fighting his car all year really, the suspension gamble probably cost him the title but I think they had the right idea. The budget restrictions mean innovation and risk taking will be the way to get ahead.

Vettel has been great and I have no idea why people keep saying he wold move to Ferrari when clearly Red Bull have given him the car to win. He will probably take the title again. I'd have thought Alonso to Red Bull would have been more likely.

The best driver out there is Kimi IMO, sure he is a bit of a rock star but whatever he is doing at Lotus it is working. Perez has impressed me also, not a consistent speed yet but he does have the ability to transcend other drivers.

Most puzzling has been Lewis Hamilton, he has had some bad luck but the team switch is baffling. Does he want to win or make excuses? I think Ross Brawn is a genius and will produce a winning car again but it seems far from a safe bet it will be in the next couple of years.

Scamp Nov 18th 2012 3:44 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew (Post 10387714)

Alonso, this year seems to have matured a little and, considering the times his races have been ended by the mistakes of others, he has responded very calmly.

Impossible for Alonso to mature. He's a ****ing weapon.

Vettel loves it, loves racing, loves winning, loves being part of it. Granted, his car is extremely quick but since when did that mean the driver didn't deserve the title in the past?

I'd like to see Kimi in a quick, reliable car next year. That'd make my bollocks tingle.

The Dean Nov 18th 2012 5:09 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10388333)
Impossible for Alonso to mature. He's a ****ing weapon.

Vettel loves it, loves racing, loves winning, loves being part of it. Granted, his car is extremely quick but since when did that mean the driver didn't deserve the title in the past?

I'd like to see Kimi in a quick, reliable car next year. That'd make my bollocks tingle.

I know a nice young Oriental lady who will make your bollocks tingle if you want......

Scamp Nov 18th 2012 5:19 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 10388406)
I know a nice young Oriental lady who will make your bollocks tingle if you want......

The Dean's sloppy seconds isn't something I wish to consider at 10:18 on Sunday morning....:rofl:

Brains1983 Nov 18th 2012 6:06 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew (Post 10387714)
Vettel 10 points ahead, looking likely to win

Alonso - better driver - car not as good as RB

In the past Alonso has behaved like a spoilt child, blaming everything/everyone but himself for his failings. Now it seems Vettel has taken that mantle.

Alonso, this year seems to have matured a little and, considering the times his races have been ended by the mistakes of others, he has responded very calmly.

Vettel's car is undoubtedly superior, and probably with any of the top drivers in it, would have achieved the same.

Who deserves the title? - I reckon Alonso due to an improved attitude and the fact he has achieved more relatively speaking in a less powerful car.

I hope he does well in the next 2 races and that Vettel spits his dummy out. Then we wont have to watch him stick that boney index finger in the air again this year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben...11/benson.html. Quite a good blog entry on this.

mandm65 Nov 18th 2012 6:09 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
Alonso all the way, simply the best driver of the current lot.

captainflack Nov 18th 2012 6:15 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
Both of them are quite annoying to be honest. But in terms of who is the best driver this year, I think you'd have to say Alonso. I think his positive attitude and support of his team has been great too, and he hasn't really been drawn into blaming others and criticising his team if the car isn't fast enough.

The Ferrari isn't as bad as everyone claims though, and Alonso is made to look good because he has a van driver as a team-mate. The car is faster in the race than in qualifying, so it tends to flatter him. Similarly Vettel has a less than average team-mate, and both Ferrari and RB seem to like it that way, so they don't have guys taking points off each other.

Hamilton has actually had a great season in terms of his performances, totally let down by reliability and some bad pit stops earlier in the season. If you look at the number of races screwed up by factors outside his control, he'd be right up there too. His attitude has sucked at times though.

I think a fair result would probably be RB for the team title and Alonso for the drivers title.

p.s. the US track looks awesome. The amazing thing about F1 cars isn't straight line speed or low speed cornering, it is how they fly round fast turns like they're on rails due to the downforce. It's the track Abu Dhabi should have built if they actually had any interest in the sport and the cars.

shiva Nov 18th 2012 6:26 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by captainflack (Post 10388470)
Both of them are quite annoying to be honest. But in terms of who is the best driver this year, I think you'd have to say Alonso. I think his positive attitude and support of his team has been great too, and he hasn't really been drawn into blaming others and criticising his team if the car isn't fast enough.

The Ferrari isn't as bad as everyone claims though, and Alonso is made to look good because he has a van driver as a team-mate. The car is faster in the race than in qualifying, so it tends to flatter him. Similarly Vettel has a less than average team-mate, and both Ferrari and RB seem to like it that way, so they don't have guys taking points off each other.

Hamilton has actually had a great season in terms of his performances, totally let down by reliability and some bad pit stops earlier in the season. If you look at the number of races screwed up by factors outside his control, he'd be right up there too. His attitude has sucked at times though.

I think a fair result would probably be RB for the team title and Alonso for the drivers title.

p.s. the US track looks awesome. The amazing thing about F1 cars isn't straight line speed or low speed cornering, it is how they fly round fast turns like they're on rails due to the downforce. It's the track Abu Dhabi should have built if they actually had any interest in the sport and the cars.

Track design for F1 circuits isnt exactly free to the owners to decide, there are only a couple of guys who can design an FIA F1 homologated track, the asshat Tilke being one of them, FOM have a massive input into every aspect of F1 so its not all ADMM's fault. To a degree what Bernie wants, you pay for!

The actual circuit itself and facilities in Abu Dhabi are highly praised by the teams both in private and public. The support paddocks was hailed as better than almost all the facilities in Australia by the V8 Supercars guys, the actual track though isnt amazing, changes have been muted partly to increase the racing potential for F1 and partly to get bikes there but the initial feedback was such a staggeringly large change that we wont see any substantial changes ever being made. (Turn 8 run off was lengthened after a number of accidents this was done under FIA directions)

This year will be seen by some as a validation of the design as it was a far more interesting race than we've ever seen here before, i don't believe however that the track had that much to do with that.

shiva Nov 18th 2012 6:31 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
regarding the original post.

They are racing drivers and therefore all ultimately little children with little sense of their own mortality or manners.

Alonso has done more with less and Vettel is forever bashed for being in a great car, he is however a bloody brilliant driver who doesnt miss many opportunities. I'd be happy to see either win but reckon Vettel has it in the bag unless there is a major **** up.

Hamilton has lost the plot frankly and given his random behavior of the track i think its clear mclaren want shot of him. They have already signed up Button for after his racing career so Hamilton sees no long term future there anyway, how he does elsewhere, who knows, he is talented but mentally a **** up maybe a new team and sense of place will straighten him out, i hope so. As for Button I hope he gets a better car and can like hamilton settle down a bit next year

Scamp Nov 18th 2012 6:36 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 
I want to see Vettel point the nose of his car at Alonso's on the first corner, a la Senna / Prost (?)

captainflack Nov 18th 2012 7:49 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by shiva (Post 10388482)
Track design for F1 circuits isnt exactly free to the owners to decide, there are only a couple of guys who can design an FIA F1 homologated track, the asshat Tilke being one of them, FOM have a massive input into every aspect of F1 so its not all ADMM's fault. To a degree what Bernie wants, you pay for!

The US circuit is a brand new track. And Istanbul Park is a Tilke circuit, and it is one of the best in the world. My feeling is that the people in AD aren't really interested in the racing, so they didn't bother to look at tracks like Spa, Silverstone, Suzuka, etc. They're just interested in sitting on a glitzy yacht or flashy hotel desperately trying to look as posh as monaco. Someone probably showed them the cost of putting some elevation changes into the track and they baulked and figured they could build a fancy marina and hotel covered in LEDs for the same money.

Originally Posted by shiva (Post 10388482)
The actual circuit itself and facilities in Abu Dhabi are highly praised by the teams both in private and public.

The facilities for spectators are great too, it's easy to get to the track, park, ride, and the organization was first class. Having bands on afterwards helps spread the rush to leave out over several hours, so by the time we left, it we didn't get stuck in a huge traffic jam either. I couldn't fault them in anything other than the circuit layout itself which I think was done on the cheap because they saw more value in what was around it than in the quality of the racing itself.

shiva Nov 18th 2012 8:06 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by captainflack (Post 10388574)
The US circuit is a brand new track. And Istanbul Park is a Tilke circuit, and it is one of the best in the world. My feeling is that the people in AD aren't really interested in the racing, so they didn't bother to look at tracks like Spa, Silverstone, Suzuka, etc. They're just interested in sitting on a glitzy yacht or flashy hotel desperately trying to look as posh as monaco. Someone probably showed them the cost of putting some elevation changes into the track and they baulked and figured they could build a fancy marina and hotel covered in LEDs for the same money.


The facilities for spectators are great too, it's easy to get to the track, park, ride, and the organization was first class. Having bands on afterwards helps spread the rush to leave out over several hours, so by the time we left, it we didn't get stuck in a huge traffic jam either. I couldn't fault them in anything other than the circuit layout itself which I think was done on the cheap because they saw more value in what was around it than in the quality of the racing itself.

given the over $1 billion cost it certainly wasn't cheap and i agree tilke has some good designs but he has some shit ones too, as you point out the people who commissioned it were not and still are not enthusiasts so nobody with any power knew what they really wanted and neither did they look at the design and say hang on we need some changes. the really sad part is that the circuit is barely being used this season and the powers that be just don't give a shit, half the time they don't even sit on the yachts or even turn up. for what its worth there are elevation changes but not quite on the COTA scale and if you look at the actualy racing lines the drivers of all classes take most ignore tilkes design on half the corners anyway.

the race director for the V8's this year pretty much allowed the drivers to take whatever route they wanted out of the track apart from cutting turns 9 and 12 and running too wide at turn 20 so as to take more speed into turn 21, the rest he just let them do what they wanted regardless of the track design

Millsyisland Nov 18th 2012 10:41 am

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10388492)
I want to see Vettel point the nose of his car at Alonso's on the first corner, a la Senna / Prost (?)

Schumacher did it to Hill some years ago too, in Australia I believe, not quite as blatant as when Prost did it to Senna though (but almost)...

norsk Nov 18th 2012 5:59 pm

Re: Vettel v Alonso - who deserves the title?
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 10388492)
I want to see Vettel point the nose of his car at Alonso's on the first corner, a la Senna / Prost (?)

Not in this race he won't, but in Brazil for sure it would be an option. It would definitely give him some notoriety in same way Schuey used to have.

In my opinion Vettel is a very lucky boy to have been at Red Bull during a period in which their car has been consistently better than any other team. Sure he's a decent driver (as are most of the drivers in F1), but I don't believe for a second he is as good as Alonso, Kimi or Lewis when lumbered with a less than perfect ride.

I personally hope he loses the championship by one point to Alonso, and it makes me sick just saying that as I despise the Spanish whiner with a passion.

Only a couple of minutes to all lights out.. :thumbsup:


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