Today, 200 years ago...
Feb 13th 2009, 5:25 pm
#16
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
Any one know where the apes came from???
Feb 13th 2009, 6:24 pm
#17
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
N.
Feb 13th 2009, 7:44 pm
#20
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
It's nearly as bad as Dubai for wannabes.
Feb 13th 2009, 9:04 pm
#21
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
The reason why Darwin had such a big influence was because The Origin of the Species was published at a time of rising literacy, hence his works were read by a much broader percentage of the population that would have been capable before. Although his book on earthworms was actually a bigger seller at the time.
Darwin merely provided one of the first steps in providing us with the understanding of our place in the ecosystem. Evolutionary science has moved on in leaps and bounds since in light of genetics and Darwin knew of the holes in his theory and hoped future discoveries would fill these. Most folks who have done GCSE biology probably know more about life than Darwin ever did.
Darwin merely provided one of the first steps in providing us with the understanding of our place in the ecosystem. Evolutionary science has moved on in leaps and bounds since in light of genetics and Darwin knew of the holes in his theory and hoped future discoveries would fill these. Most folks who have done GCSE biology probably know more about life than Darwin ever did.
Feb 14th 2009, 3:13 am
#22
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
Off topic:
I'm not overly fond of shoe shopping 
.
If only there where some way we could marry your love of shopping with my financial assets, like a sort of business partnership...
...Wait we could...but wait you're already....
...hmmm
...
...meh...
I can't see a way for the house of Charismatics and house of Squirty Creams to be tied sadly.
.If only there where some way we could marry your love of shopping with my financial assets, like a sort of business partnership...
...Wait we could...but wait you're already....
...hmmm
......meh...
I can't see a way for the house of Charismatics and house of Squirty Creams to be tied sadly.
Feb 14th 2009, 5:38 am
#23
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
Yes, it took him 20 years to even be sure enough to publish "The Origin of Species". Most of his concearn for his own work was around the actual methods that allowed heredity to be establish such that traits could be passed on to offspring. Something that was actually only solved 50 years ago when the structure and nature of DNA was first established (although first established in concept by George Mendel which was the start of modern genetics).
An excellent question.
The answer is that we didn't evolve from Apes, but we do share a common ancester. What gave rise to humans and apes was neither human nor ape. One problem people have is that they tend to think of species as being never changing but in fact they are quite plastic and, as any selective breeder (dogs, birds, plants etc.) will tell you, it's suprising how few generation you need to change a species.
Lets say we where to introduce to an islands cows and tigers. The tigers kill a cow or two a day, usually the one thats easiest for them to catch or see. The surviving cows breed. Soon only the cows that can outrun the other cows, due to slightly longer legs, exist and breed togeather. Eventually the cows get so good at running away that only the darker coloured tigers can catch them (due to being better able to conceal themself in their environment) and the others starve.
Suddenly you have cows with longer legs, but no short legged cows left and darker coloured tigers but no light ones left. The population as a whole changes because from the perspective of the tigers the cows are getting faster and from the perspective of the cows the tigers are getting better at sneaking up on them. The animals best adapted to they environment survive and hence breed togeather, the others get eaten or starve.
Does that make sense?
An excellent question.
The answer is that we didn't evolve from Apes, but we do share a common ancester. What gave rise to humans and apes was neither human nor ape. One problem people have is that they tend to think of species as being never changing but in fact they are quite plastic and, as any selective breeder (dogs, birds, plants etc.) will tell you, it's suprising how few generation you need to change a species.
Lets say we where to introduce to an islands cows and tigers. The tigers kill a cow or two a day, usually the one thats easiest for them to catch or see. The surviving cows breed. Soon only the cows that can outrun the other cows, due to slightly longer legs, exist and breed togeather. Eventually the cows get so good at running away that only the darker coloured tigers can catch them (due to being better able to conceal themself in their environment) and the others starve.
Suddenly you have cows with longer legs, but no short legged cows left and darker coloured tigers but no light ones left. The population as a whole changes because from the perspective of the tigers the cows are getting faster and from the perspective of the cows the tigers are getting better at sneaking up on them. The animals best adapted to they environment survive and hence breed togeather, the others get eaten or starve
.Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes perfect sense, and I can get my head around that concept. But at the end of the day, we will have cows and tigers - albeit slightly different to what they were a few generations ago.
My question lies around how the apes/monkeys make that quantam leap into being walking talking upright thinking humans? So it we use that same island with cows and tigers, and this time populate it with apes/ monkeys - where did man come from? Surely we would still be left with the same apes / monkeys - but just slightly different?
Plus, why has the current homo sapien evolved? We've been around for at least two thousand years - if not longer, why are there now signs that we are not evolving? Or is it that maybe the X Men do really exist and we are developing super powers?
As I said, the theory still doesn't make sense to me, neither does the Big Bang theory - order, balance and harmony does not come from a chaotic explosion, surely any scientist will agree with that?
Interesting discussion though!
Feb 14th 2009, 6:46 am
#24
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
Hi,
Yes, it makes perfect sense, and I can get my head around that concept. But at the end of the day, we will have cows and tigers - albeit slightly different to what they were a few generations ago.
My question lies around how the apes/monkeys make that quantam leap into being walking talking upright thinking humans? So it we use that same island with cows and tigers, and this time populate it with apes/ monkeys - where did man come from? Surely we would still be left with the same apes / monkeys - but just slightly different?
Plus, why has the current homo sapien evolved? We've been around for at least two thousand years - if not longer, why are there now signs that we are not evolving? Or is it that maybe the X Men do really exist and we are developing super powers?
As I said, the theory still doesn't make sense to me, neither does the Big Bang theory - order, balance and harmony does not come from a chaotic explosion, surely any scientist will agree with that?
Interesting discussion though!
Yes, it makes perfect sense, and I can get my head around that concept. But at the end of the day, we will have cows and tigers - albeit slightly different to what they were a few generations ago.
My question lies around how the apes/monkeys make that quantam leap into being walking talking upright thinking humans? So it we use that same island with cows and tigers, and this time populate it with apes/ monkeys - where did man come from? Surely we would still be left with the same apes / monkeys - but just slightly different?
Plus, why has the current homo sapien evolved? We've been around for at least two thousand years - if not longer, why are there now signs that we are not evolving? Or is it that maybe the X Men do really exist and we are developing super powers?
As I said, the theory still doesn't make sense to me, neither does the Big Bang theory - order, balance and harmony does not come from a chaotic explosion, surely any scientist will agree with that?
Interesting discussion though!
As to why we evolved. Well it is generally agreed that all Hominid species emerged in Africa, in the dense forested areas. For some reason (possibly scarcity of food or aggressive competition from rival groups/species) our early ancestors moved from the forest out to the plains. Their traditional diet of fruits and nuts would have been less available and so alternative food sources were needed. These early ancestors adapted and started eating meat as a large part of their diet. Hunting became a valued skill for which tactics and strategy were needed, therefore intelligence became a means of selection. If you were smart you ate for a minimum amount of energy expended, whereby the stupid strong ones just ran around a lot and occasionally got lucky. The trend was therefore on smarter hominids and coupled with a higher protein diet the brain over time and through many generations increased in size.
This carried on for hundreds of thousands of years until 200,000 years ago when Homo sapiens sapiens emerged. We have been evolving since this point, but have not changed significantly enough to warrant a new species classification. If we are suited to our environment as we are then the success of advantageous mutation is reduced - one of the reasons why crocodiles and sharks have changed little over the last 30 million years.
Feb 14th 2009, 7:51 am
#26
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
A lot of looooooooooooooooooooooooong posts on this thread...I better get out of here...The sheer volume of intelligence is overwhelming me...
Feb 14th 2009, 11:37 am
#27
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
Both humans and living apes are fully modern species. The ancestor we evolved from was also an ape, but it is now extinct and was not the same as present day apes (or humans for that matter). Also, "upright thinking humans" are still apes...we belong to the great apes.
Feb 14th 2009, 12:05 pm
#28
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
So you're not a proponent of the complex nature of human group dynamics to be the driving force behind the human mind?
Interesting to me because other animals living in similar conditions don't appear to have shown any trend towards higher levels of intelligence.
And what of the future of the human race given that many selective pressures have been removed and only a few added. What might our fate be if left to our own devices and we choose not to interfere?
Interesting to me because other animals living in similar conditions don't appear to have shown any trend towards higher levels of intelligence
.And what of the future of the human race given that many selective pressures have been removed and only a few added. What might our fate be if left to our own devices and we choose not to interfere?
Feb 14th 2009, 4:21 pm
#29
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
I've read a theory that the apes who moved out of the trees into the plains also started standing on two feet more and subsequently developed the dextrous arms and hands with opposing thumbs that we have now. This new dexterity led to the ability to manipulate materials and make tools, and the intelligence of these early hominids leaped forwards as a result. The meat-rich diet combined with this to set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Civilisation itself arose from the invention of agriculture. Before we farmed we were nomadic hunter-gatherers and existed in unison with nature at a stable global population of around 5 million for a very long period (several thousand years, I believe) and conflict was minimal. 10,000 years ago this all changed, the food supply increased, reproduction rates increased, and with farming came ideas of land ownership, spin-off trades and skills arose, writing came about and so did organised forms of religion. The Garden of Eden and the story of the Fall of Man in Genesis may have roots in this shift of lifestyles.
Also, the reason we haven't evolved as much as other animals is because natural selection doesn't apply so much in the human world. The gene pool has been constantly diluted with all the interbreeding and beneficial changes are more gradual.
Civilisation itself arose from the invention of agriculture. Before we farmed we were nomadic hunter-gatherers and existed in unison with nature at a stable global population of around 5 million for a very long period (several thousand years, I believe) and conflict was minimal. 10,000 years ago this all changed, the food supply increased, reproduction rates increased, and with farming came ideas of land ownership, spin-off trades and skills arose, writing came about and so did organised forms of religion. The Garden of Eden and the story of the Fall of Man in Genesis may have roots in this shift of lifestyles.
Also, the reason we haven't evolved as much as other animals is because natural selection doesn't apply so much in the human world. The gene pool has been constantly diluted with all the interbreeding and beneficial changes are more gradual.
Last edited by littlejimmy; Feb 14th 2009 at 4:25 pm.
Feb 14th 2009, 5:21 pm
#30
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Re: Today, 200 years ago...
just a small aside, but the main driving force behind evolutionary change is not gradual but but rapid and mostly catstrophic change, ie sudden change in environment due to any number of local and global changes, genetic mutation, disease etc. It is these events which mark the main changes and not the smaller progressive changes which do, i agree occur but have little effect on the changing of species. These sudden changes are what we see in the palaeontological and geological record and stand up as an effective and workable theory.
To take the cow/tiger example of earlier, were a cow to be born due to genetic mutation with stronger tendons or different pelvic structure within 1 single generation you have a cow which can outrun the tigers and its offspring will rapidly dominate. Whilst the slow changes do occur the effects are laregly negligable.
Both the evolution of species and the earth as a whole consist of the small daily changes but are marked by catastrophic change.
as to darwin, he was merely the culmination of the progress of man and the final death call for religion
To take the cow/tiger example of earlier, were a cow to be born due to genetic mutation with stronger tendons or different pelvic structure within 1 single generation you have a cow which can outrun the tigers and its offspring will rapidly dominate. Whilst the slow changes do occur the effects are laregly negligable.
Both the evolution of species and the earth as a whole consist of the small daily changes but are marked by catastrophic change.
as to darwin, he was merely the culmination of the progress of man and the final death call for religion