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State schools 'not providing group worship'

State schools 'not providing group worship'

Old Sep 11th 2011, 2:50 pm
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Default State schools 'not providing group worship'

I'd assumed the headline was making a positive statement about UK schools' secular stance. I must be out of touch, because, apparently (and I would hope the BBC's got this right):

The Department for Education states that all maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship which must reflect the traditions of this country, which it says are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Collective worship? Collective WORSHIP? Worship is: An act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.

So UK schools are under an obligation to force my son to perform a daily act of religous devotion? (OK, I can require that he doesn't attend, and now that he's 16 he can make his own choice.)

I find that utterly astonishing--the state decides my childrens' religious practices.

I think I'll start subscribing to the Daily Mail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14794472
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 3:02 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

but... British schools aren't secular and never have been, so it shouldn't come as a shock. What else do you think assemblies are, if not a moment of collective worship - and not too dissimilar from mass really - a little bit of community catch-up, a moral tale as food for thought and some songs of praise. Of course, the school can choose what songs to sing, but I certainly remember mumbling along to All Creatures Great and Small at primary school.

In France, where schools are fervently non-religious and secular, they don't have assemblies, nor religious studies.
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 3:15 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Hello.Kitty View Post
but... British schools aren't secular and never have been, so it shouldn't come as a shock. What else do you think assemblies are, if not a moment of collective worship - and not too dissimilar from mass really - a little bit of community catch-up, a moral tale as food for thought and some songs of praise. Of course, the school can choose what songs to sing, but I certainly remember mumbling along to All Creatures Great and Small at primary school.

In France, where schools are fervently non-religious and secular, they don't have assemblies, nor religious studies.
Yeah, I remember assemblies, but that was decades ago. I thought we'd move on. I find it totally abhorrent.
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 3:24 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

so do I - I loved the French, unbiased system and their take on it... basically, religion has no place in secular education and is first and foremost a personal decision.

Saying that, I asked the Head of the school I hope Miss Kitty will be going to about er, what went on in assemblies and he said they concentrated more on the moral aspects and instilling a good code of conduct, rather than "God" in particular.
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 3:26 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

The alternative headline for the same story could be:

"Schools no longer conducting assemblies due to fear of upsetting minority groups"

I think assemblies are a good thing. How else are you going to find the next kid to bully for chucking up his sugar puffs or being hit by a car?
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 4:46 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I'd assumed the headline was making a positive statement about UK schools' secular stance. I must be out of touch, because, apparently (and I would hope the BBC's got this right):

The Department for Education states that all maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship which must reflect the traditions of this country, which it says are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Collective worship? Collective WORSHIP? Worship is: An act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.

So UK schools are under an obligation to force my son to perform a daily act of religous devotion? (OK, I can require that he doesn't attend, and now that he's 16 he can make his own choice.)

I find that utterly astonishing--the state decides my childrens' religious practices.

I think I'll start subscribing to the Daily Mail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14794472
I had a note from my father to my primary school headmaster that during morning assembly ('collective worship') I did not have to pray. I was only 7 at the time ! I turned atheist at aged 6 when I found out Santa Clause did not exist and had been lied to by adults...so putting two and two together worked out the same for gods.
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 4:58 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

I used to be an atheist teacher in London, and I just went with the golden rule, no bullying, no mention of god; it seemed acceptable at the time to all, kept within the law.
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Old Sep 11th 2011, 7:23 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
The Department for Education states that all maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship which must reflect the traditions of this country, which it says are, in the main, broadly Christian.
Yeah that caught me off guard too.

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I think I'll start subscribing to the Daily Mail.
Steady!
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Old Sep 12th 2011, 7:31 am
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

I remember prayer and Christian hymns in school as a child and also thought we had become more secular.

To be honest the idea that a government can promote or give credence to any religion is quite wrong. But the UK government gives taxpayers money to the Anglican Church and also to a number religious schools including Islamic, Jewish and Catholic schools. Britain has no constitution - it is NOT a secular country (unlike the USA, which declares government and religion separate). Ironically there are far more Christians in the USA per capita than the UK.

Unless people protest this across the board and demand the end to religion and government we should just accept we are apparently all Christians like it or not.

On a personal note I think I'd prefer Christianity to any other Abrahamic religion. I can still drink, eat pork and the founder was a pacifist who went around healing people....I stress this would be the lessor of other evils choice for me though.

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Old Sep 12th 2011, 11:30 am
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
I remember prayer and Christian hymns in school as a child and also thought we had become more secular.

To be honest the idea that a government can promote or give credence to any religion is quite wrong. But the UK government gives taxpayers money to the Anglican Church and also to a number religious schools including Islamic, Jewish and Catholic schools. Britain has no constitution - it is NOT a secular country (unlike the USA, which declares government and religion separate). Ironically there are far more Christians in the USA per capita than the UK.

Unless people protest this across the board and demand the end to religion and government we should just accept we are apparently all Christians like it or not.

On a personal note I think I'd prefer Christianity to any other Abrahamic religion. I can still drink, eat pork and the founder was a pacifist who went around healing people....I stress this would be the lessor of other evils choice for me though.

N.
I seem to have my correcting pen out today.

Constitution--it most certainly does, just not contained in one neat document (with a good many amendments).

Drink--not in Wales on a Sunday, and not at all if you adhere to one or other of the flavours.

Pork--not on Fridays, fish fingers only.

Having said that, you're free to revoke your membership at any time without the threat of immediate consequences, although of course you'll pay in the hereafter--which wouldn't worry you if you'd already torn up your membership card.

The Japanese have a very convenient dualist approach, some 70% being Shintoish and 80% being Buddhist. But generally they'll all have a Shinto birth ceremony, and a Buddhist funeral. Because Buddhists believe in reincarnation, but Shintoists don't--you gotta hedge your bets in life (and death).
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Old Sep 12th 2011, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I seem to have my correcting pen out today.

Constitution--it most certainly does, just not contained in one neat document (with a good many amendments).
Put that pen away young man!

You're right but I mean it has no single, clear constitution...and I don't think it would do any harm to put it all together in one document we can all go to and read about rather than statutes, court judgments, treaties, parliamentary constitutional conventions and royal prerogatives.
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Drink--not in Wales on a Sunday, and not at all if you adhere to one or other of the flavours.

Pork--not on Fridays, fish fingers only.
Assuming you're a Catholic that is...and a fairly traditional one at that.

I don't recall anything in the bible about not eating fish on friday (or popes, celibate priests, big money church buildings and really cool services in dead languages that have nothing to do with the people or culture that wrote the bibe).
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Having said that, you're free to revoke your membership at any time without the threat of immediate consequences, although of course you'll pay in the hereafter--which wouldn't worry you if you'd already torn up your membership card.
Yup - Jesus never said people who leave the faith should be killed unlike that other fellow who's name escapes me for some politically correct reason or another....I know it wasn't Moses...bloody hell what's his name?
Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
The Japanese have a very convenient dualist approach, some 70% being Shintoish and 80% being Buddhist. But generally they'll all have a Shinto birth ceremony, and a Buddhist funeral. Because Buddhists believe in reincarnation, but Shintoists don't--you gotta hedge your bets in life (and death).
Odd because Japan has one of the highest rates of atheist/agnostics in the world according to Adherents.com. I personally feel Japan's religion is sake, trying to look up women's skirts and computer games myself...I hope it is because it gives me comfort that sexual deviancy, PC games and heavy drinking are the bedrock of at least one major civillisation

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Old Sep 12th 2011, 1:17 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Odd because Japan has one of the highest rates of atheist/agnostics in the world according to Adherents.com. I personally feel Japan's religion is sake, trying to look up women's skirts and computer games myself...I hope it is because it gives me comfort that sexual deviancy, PC games and heavy drinking are the bedrock of at least one major civillisation

N.
I think the difference is that they don't let religion colour their daily lives. Their behaviour is a function of their culture and moral code, neither of which has been controlled by religion. (I had difficulty choosing the right verb there: influenced, hijacked, subverted, directed, overpowered? Controlled is probably not the precisely correct word, but its a question of dominance of religion over innate order which is something that is easy to perceive elsewhere.)

And you're wrong again on another point. Girls' skirts, not women's. :-)
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Old Sep 13th 2011, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

/throws another book in the fire


BURN BABY BURN!!!!


Wha..? Oh never mind...


U.
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Old Sep 15th 2011, 5:10 am
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I think the difference is that they don't let religion colour their daily lives. Their behaviour is a function of their culture and moral code, neither of which has been controlled by religion. (I had difficulty choosing the right verb there: influenced, hijacked, subverted, directed, overpowered? Controlled is probably not the precisely correct word, but its a question of dominance of religion over innate order which is something that is easy to perceive elsewhere.)

And you're wrong again on another point. Girls' skirts, not women's. :-)
I stand corrected...and horrified

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Old Sep 15th 2011, 6:51 am
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Default Re: State schools 'not providing group worship'

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
I stand corrected...and horrified

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No no, you've got it wrong--you need to bend down...
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