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So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Old Jan 18th 2017, 1:06 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Now that I have a bit more time I can respond to your post without the usual mocking emoticons

Why are you fixated on comparing Britain today to a very fixed period in British history circa the 1970s? Why not think of Britain circa 1925 or 1900 or 1875 or 1850 or 1825?

The post-war industrial decline is well known. It was the consequence of multiple factors ranging from the aftermath of WWII, post-war socialism, the need to rebuild British industry and infrastructure, inability to temper the increasingly powerful unions, changes wrought by the giving up of empire and the old trade models and so forth. It is, as it turned out, a fairly short episode in a long history.

I don't think many dispute that the common market was very helpful in restoring prosperity to Britain. We just don't know if Britain would be as well off today had we never joined the common market (which I suspect would be the case - can you name me any other highly educated, highly democratic country with a strong history of trade and generally pro capitalist attitudes that has entered permanent long term economic decline in the last forty years?).

Nonetheless, we did enter the single market based on the circumstances of the 1970s, and certainly benefited from it. But there is more to life than economics, as some seem to forget. The single market grew into the behemoth that is the EU. The British public has never been wildly enthusiastic about the EU nor supportive of the ever closer integration that the EU is hell-bent upon.

Hammond's interview with the German Welt makes for excellent reading:
https://www.welt.de/english-news/art...-partners.html and I will quote a statement of his:

'My guess is that without Britain as a member, the European Union will move in a direction that will make it less attractive to people in the UK, because there is a mood for further political integration, I sense, and there is, and never has been, no appetite in the UK to that. There is a tension there that has become greater as the EU has taken further steps of integration.'

If the EU was still just the common market then Remain would have won in a massive landslide, if there had ever been a referendum to begin with. It made sense to join the common market based on the context of the 1970s. But the contexts have now changed and Britain is leaving the EU it never meant or wanted to join, let alone imagine evolving out of the 1970s common market. Just as the world changed between 1939 and Britain's entry in the common market in 1975, the world has radically changed since 1975 and perhaps Britain no longer needs the EU.

I supported leaving the EU in part because I saw the EU moving into a certain direction that was not in Britain's best interest, and I also saw that it wasn't in the EU's best interest to keep Britain as a member. The tensions between the two was only going to get worse and worse as time went on.


As it is, the die has been cast. We are leaving the EU. It presents many opportunities along with the challenges. It's an exciting time


Originally Posted by captainflack View Post
Britain refused to join the EEC right at the start, because it felt it was a global power with a commonwealth and it would trade with that instead.

After a few years of the economy being outpaced by the original EEC 6 countries, it was clear that selling morris minors to sheepshaggers in NZ wasn't a great business model. After being refused by the french a couple of times because they reckoned we were not really committed to 'ever closer union' and 'freedom of movement' (which contrary to popular Daily Express opinion, were laid down in the founding treaty of rome, 1957), and were too close to the USA, Britain eventually lied it's way in and assured everyone we really were committed now.

We spent the next 40 years or so being pretty successful as a result, rising from a moribund 12th biggest economy in the world (at a time when half of Europe was communist and people in the far east rode a bike if they were rich) to the 5th largest, while all the time doing our best to frustrate 'ever closer union' such that the rest of them really cannot wait now to get rid of us.

But I for one am fed up, especially as we now have to share decisions about hairdryers and vacuum cleaners with the Germans and French. We will very soon have control of the hairdryer and vacuum cleaner industry back in our own hands. We'll still be a NATO member which means the armed forces that defend our homeland are controlled by an American general who answers to an orangutang who wants to let Vladimir Putin have crimea, and maybe the rest of eastern europe too. But let's not get sidetracked. Sovereignty was never about side issues like who gets to send our tanks over the top or command our planes to bomb people, we will be able to make less environmentally friendly hairdryers than the rest of europe. And we can happily go back to selling moris minors or whatever other cr4p we can build without german help to the sheepshaggers again. A new golden age dawns.
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Mrs. May had one phrase in her speech, which I think in time will come to sum up the action of the British electorate last June (though she was using it as a kind of silly sub-Trumpesque threat):
"A calamitous act of self-harm".
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Meow View Post
The 'red side' meaning those commie Labour folk? Are they lurching to the right too? They seem to be lurching all over the place and achieving precisely nothing right now.
yes those Bolshevik Guardian readers, or at least the Trade Union movement which is directing just how far Labour lurches to the left.
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 3:29 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
As it is, the die has been cast. We are leaving the EU. It presents many opportunities along with the challenges. It's an exciting time
If you look at the people behind brexit, and their political fringe views expressed publicly and to small gatherings over the last 20 years, things might look a little different.

People like Fox, Farage and Gove are smart enough to know that the UK cannot be an economic block its own right, it's just too small. The choice is therefore essentially whether it is a constituent part of the EU, which is broadly progressive on social issues, workers rights, healthcare and the environment, or goes the US route of unbridled capitalism.

They're not really interested in sovereignty as such, which is why all are strong supports of NATO, the result of which is that the UK military is controlled from washington. Yet they're appalled by the concept of a European army.

The UK has made clear if it does not get free trade with the EU, it will 'have no choice' but to become a tax haven and abandon the 'social model' of European countries, which means abolition of the NHS and slashing spending on education and so on, while dropping taxes, especially for the rich. There will also have to be a bonfire of environmental and other standards. This is because they know that if they don't have single market access, the only realistic way to bridge the gap is with a US trade deal. But the UK could not presently contemplate such a thing, because the US standards on everything are so much lower, UK businesses and farmers would be wiped out. Steroids that the US farmers can use for cattle, are not allowed in the food chain in Europe.

Of course, it doesn't really matter to the EU what horrors the UK government might inflict on itself in terms of slashing standards and abolishing the NHS, but of course when this happens, they can't blame it on themselves, like most things it'll be the fault of the EU - in this case for not continuing to give us the beneficial terms of membership after we chose to leave, and not our fault for leaving.

There is only so much the Daily Express can do, and to go from £350m more per week for the NHS to having no NHS might be too much even for the typical knuckle dragging Brit to accept. That will certainly be exciting to watch. Meanwhile, I am safely on the big stable side of the breaking ice, and have socialized healthcare, so it doesn't really affect me.
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Old Jan 18th 2017, 6:31 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
Mrs. May had one phrase in her speech, which I think in time will come to sum up the action of the British electorate last June (though she was using it as a kind of silly sub-Trumpesque threat):
"A calamitous act of self-harm".
I remember a lady of a very similar name around these parts years gone by. I think you may have dropped an E. Fair play.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 2:12 am
  #36  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by captainflack View Post
If you look at the people behind brexit, and their political fringe views expressed publicly and to small gatherings over the last 20 years, things might look a little different.

People like Fox, Farage and Gove are smart enough to know that the UK cannot be an economic block its own right, it's just too small. The choice is therefore essentially whether it is a constituent part of the EU, which is broadly progressive on social issues, workers rights, healthcare and the environment, or goes the US route of unbridled capitalism.

They're not really interested in sovereignty as such, which is why all are strong supports of NATO, the result of which is that the UK military is controlled from washington. Yet they're appalled by the concept of a European army.

The UK has made clear if it does not get free trade with the EU, it will 'have no choice' but to become a tax haven and abandon the 'social model' of European countries, which means abolition of the NHS and slashing spending on education and so on, while dropping taxes, especially for the rich. There will also have to be a bonfire of environmental and other standards. This is because they know that if they don't have single market access, the only realistic way to bridge the gap is with a US trade deal. But the UK could not presently contemplate such a thing, because the US standards on everything are so much lower, UK businesses and farmers would be wiped out. Steroids that the US farmers can use for cattle, are not allowed in the food chain in Europe.

Of course, it doesn't really matter to the EU what horrors the UK government might inflict on itself in terms of slashing standards and abolishing the NHS, but of course when this happens, they can't blame it on themselves, like most things it'll be the fault of the EU - in this case for not continuing to give us the beneficial terms of membership after we chose to leave, and not our fault for leaving.

There is only so much the Daily Express can do, and to go from £350m more per week for the NHS to having no NHS might be too much even for the typical knuckle dragging Brit to accept. That will certainly be exciting to watch. Meanwhile, I am safely on the big stable side of the breaking ice, and have socialized healthcare, so it doesn't really affect me.
The NHS was modeled on the healthcare systems of other European countries? That is news to me. We have also, even with the benefit of the EU, seen an erosion of the NHS and its ability to do its job. Perhaps now is the perfect time to go back to the fundamentals of what the NHS should be rather than continue with the behemoth it has become.

I also do not accept that being out of the EU will somehow result in a 'bonfire' of legislation that has improved the lives of people in Britain. Many of our own laws go beyond the minimum standards set out by the EU. I believe that any government that erodes these laws will sharp find itself out of office. What we will have is the ability to do is create laws that suit the UK, not laws that suit 27 other countries interests as well.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 4:48 am
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Autonomy View Post
I remember a lady of a very similar name around these parts years gone by. I think you may have dropped an E. Fair play.
Many a year since I dropped any Es.... But you are observant for an old fart, aren't you? With (Sir!!!) Andy Murray world number one on top of all the rest going on, I thought the end must be nigh so might as well stick my oar back in. So to speak.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 12:41 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
Many a year since I dropped any Es.... But you are observant for an old fart, aren't you? With (Sir!!!) Andy Murray world number one on top of all the rest going on, I thought the end must be nigh so might as well stick my oar back in. So to speak.
Please stick around. It's getting very right wing around these parts of late and some reasonable views would be welcomed. Or at least welcomed by those who aren't frotting themselves into an excited frenzy over Brexit and Trump.
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 2:33 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Please stick around. It's getting very right wing around these parts of late and some reasonable views would be welcomed. Or at least welcomed by those who aren't frotting themselves into an excited frenzy over Brexit and Trump.
Not to mention the casual racism, misogyny and homophobia bursting like suppurating pus from every contribution of some of those recently very active... Nanny needs some back-up!
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 2:45 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
Not to mention the casual racism, misogyny and homophobia bursting like suppurating pus from every contribution of some of those recently very active... Nanny needs some back-up!
Would like to see evidence of that.
With the exception of the now departed Iggle (who was only doing it to wind people up) I don't see any of the above on here.

Classing your post as Fake News
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Old Jan 19th 2017, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope View Post
Not to mention the casual racism, misogyny and homophobia bursting like suppurating pus from every contribution of some of those recently very active...
yeh, it's been great.
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Old Jan 22nd 2017, 10:49 am
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
yeh, it's been great.
Ahhh, the closet liberals are the worst....
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Old Jan 22nd 2017, 1:29 pm
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

The loonies really do believe that now there has been a NO vote, Queen Victoria will come back, we can have an Empire again and everything will be tickety-boo !


Except for the swivel-eyed loon who started it all. Farage has nipped off to the US where he will get political asylum from his tangerine-haired pal.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 5:15 am
  #44  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
Except for the swivel-eyed loon who started it all. Farage has nipped off to the US where he will get political asylum from his tangerine-haired pal.
Let's hope he just bloody stays there.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 5:40 am
  #45  
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Default Re: So we're leaving the EU including the Single Market

You never fail to impress with your ever so relevant observations, comments and wit You should have a regular commentary in the Guardian.

Originally Posted by scot47 View Post
The loonies really do believe that now there has been a NO vote, Queen Victoria will come back, we can have an Empire again and everything will be tickety-boo !

Last edited by DXBtoDOH; Jan 23rd 2017 at 5:44 am.
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