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Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

View Poll Results: Scottish Independence
I am Scottish and would vote Yes
7
14.89%
I am Scottish and would vote No
6
12.77%
I am Scottish and am undecided
1
2.13%
I am not Scottish and would vote Yes
11
23.40%
I am not Scottish and would vote No
21
44.68%
I am not Scottish and am undecided
1
2.13%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Old Dec 4th 2013, 2:42 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Kix View Post
It doesn't but as it affects everyone in the UK it should.
I meant outsiders should not be allowed to vote on the internal referendum of a separate country or area. That's why we have electoral boundaries.

Has there been any other referendum for citizens based in the UK to release other territories such as Australia, Canada, UAE, Aden, Hong Kong?

Not sure if there have been or if it is just an act of parliament that grants the independence.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 2:55 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

The residents of Australia, Canada etc were never citizens of the UK with voting rights in the UK. These places were clearly designated as colonies or dominions and there was never serious attempt to integrate these countries with Great Britain.

Scotland is a bit different in that since the Act of Union its residents have had full political rights alongside the English.

I can see the benefits of striking it out alone. Scotland is indeed different enough with its own history and cultural traditions. An independent Scottish government may be more responsive to the needs of its citizens (and the same in England).

But economically and politically there's more benefits to the two countries remaining unified in the long run. The premier of a Scottish republic would amount to nothing on the international scene (quick, name me the premier of Austria or Denmark) whereas the PM of the UK is listened and respected. The recent banking crisis where the UK bailed out RBS and Bank of Scotland clearly indicates the value of being part of a larger union. Then, of course, is the irony of wanting independence AND EU membership at the same time...

Anyway, I'll step aside and and wait and see what happens. Quick question, if Scotland goes do the Scottish posters have to stop posting on here?

Originally Posted by weasel decentral View Post
I meant outsiders should not be allowed to vote on the internal referendum of a separate country or area. That's why we have electoral boundaries.

Has there been any other referendum for citizens based in the UK to release other territories such as Australia, Canada, UAE, Aden, Hong Kong?

Not sure if there have been or if it is just an act of parliament that grants the independence.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:16 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Meow View Post
Interesting points Shiva, but I have a question. England and Scotland have been linked for 400 years, so isn't that enough time to have accepted the situation and made the best of it?
given that there hasn't been a civil war and that the union still exists I'd say that's exactly what has happened.
It sounds as if many have been bearing a grudge over many generations instead of working to improve things and for all to benefit from the union. I don't understand the separatist mentality and the anti-English feeling. I've always accepted that we are the British Isles/United Kingdom and never describe myself as English, but as British.
many have borne a grudge the vast majority haven't and don't. Remember scotland was an independent nation for far longer than the union has existed, the nation of Scotland still exists but as a union of parliaments and crowns within the UK, it's not a separatist mentality but an awareness of national identity, a percentage of the population would now like to dissolve that union and stand again as an independent state perhaps within a different union, that of Europe.

(Supplementary question - are you coming to the meeting of BE weirdos next week?)
Meeting, no, did that once 10 years ago, destroyed my ability to be a bastard to you all for a while, besides I'm basically an anti social arse.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:22 pm
  #79  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Kix View Post
Just to add, as it will affect the whole of the UK, shouldn't England, wales and northern ireland have a say too?

that right there is the problem. Scotland won a devolved parliament exactly because the rest of the uk was deciding what scots felt was far too much of our own fate.
Should any of the other states wish a say then they should do exactly as the scots did and ask their respective governments for a referendum. Something which I would wholly support you all in doing


Obviously it's undemocratic for just UK people who have an address in scotland have the right to cast their vote.
actually it's not, the citizens of Scotland have elected a government that promised a referendum, it's perfectly democratic and certainly a lot more democratic than Scotland having governments it didn't vote for years.

Maybe we should open it up to all the provinces of England, straightforward question, should the following have independence? scotland, ales, northern ireland and then, if the populace say that (say) scotland and wales should but northern ireland shouldn't, then the voters of The Union have spoken and they can have it.its not up to the English to decide anyone's fate but those of the English. Should the French all vote on whether England is cast out of the eu? Why then should the English decide the fate of Scotland?

I'd vote yes to all three - but you knew that already.

I'm English, not British btw.
You'd never know
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:32 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
Easy tiger! Be very careful when you start playing the racist card. Please point out the racist comments because they're not acceptable in this forum.
N.B. 'English' or 'Scottish' are not races. Being a negro or Chinese are both races.
Racist comments happen on here all the bloody time it's just nobody calls them out
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:42 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Ethos83 View Post
The residents of Australia, Canada etc were never citizens of the UK with voting rights in the UK. These places were clearly designated as colonies or dominions and there was never serious attempt to integrate these countries with Great Britain.

Scotland is a bit different in that since the Act of Union its residents have had full political rights alongside the English.

I can see the benefits of striking it out alone. Scotland is indeed different enough with its own history and cultural traditions. An independent Scottish government may be more responsive to the needs of its citizens (and the same in England).

But economically and politically there's more benefits to the two countries remaining unified in the long run. The premier of a Scottish republic would amount to nothing on the international scene (quick, name me the premier of Austria or Denmark) whereas the PM of the UK is listened and respected. The recent banking crisis where the UK bailed out RBS and Bank of Scotland clearly indicates the value of being part of a larger union. Then, of course, is the irony of wanting independence AND EU membership at the same time...
and why is it so important to have an internationally recognised premier, China's return to the global superpower it always has been along with the rise of other nations pretty much nullifies any international standing the UK once held, unless the UK intends to invade or drop bombs it's negotiating power these days is very limited. I for one would rather have an unknown premier and a political system that reflects the age we live in and the people who voted for it.

Anyway, I'll step aside and and wait and see what happens. Quick question, if Scotland goes do the Scottish posters have to stop posting on here?
Re the EU, Scotland wishes to swap two political masters for one. Master with whom we have a better historical relationship with than the UK or England. Scotland has traded independently within Europe for millennia most see few obstacles to that continuing beyond Westminster.

We will of course establish a new forum known as the busy and productive rather than the bored. We will of course welcome our old bored neighbours in friendship and hope that they join us in the utopian paradise that we will build.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:45 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
Racist comments happen on here all the bloody time it's just nobody calls them out
You just pointed a finger, so put your money where your mouth is. I'll say it again, being a Scot is not a race it's as ridiculous as saying that insulting Londoners is racist.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:45 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Interestingly enough in the 2011 election the SNP did win a majority of seats but only 45% of the popular vote. In other words the majority of people in Scotland did not vote for the SNP or their pledge to have a referendum....



Originally Posted by shiva View Post
You'd never know
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 3:52 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

You're right. The Austrians probably don't care that people outside Austria don't know who the premier is. The typical Scot may not care for any international prestige either and are content to be known as a theme park for Chinese tourists.

Still, I do have a particular point of pride in the history of Great Britain and her accomplishments in the world and the residual legacy. I'd be very sorry to see that history broken up and relegated to the dustbins of history.

You're not banging on about the Auld Alliance are you? The one that the French have completely forgotten about for the last few hundred years and was an incredibly minor detail in the greater scheme of French political ambitions?

I think you'll find that Scotland's trade is primarily domestic and has been for a long time.

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
Re the EU, Scotland wishes to swap two political masters for one. Master with whom we have a better historical relationship with than the UK or England. Scotland has traded independently within Europe for millennia most see few obstacles to that continuing beyond Westminster.

We will of course establish a new forum known as the busy and productive rather than the bored. We will of course welcome our old bored neighbours in friendship and hope that they join us in the utopian paradise that we will build.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:03 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
You just pointed a finger, so put your money where your mouth is. I'll say it again, being a Scot is not a race it's as ridiculous as saying that insulting Londoners is racist.
You're right. So perhaps you'd prefer I used one of the following instead.

biased, bigoted, discriminatory, partisan, partial, one-sided, jaundiced, intolerant, narrow-minded, unfair, unjust, inequitable, non-objective, unobjective, blinkered, parti pris, coloured, distorted, warped, loaded or weighted
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:06 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Ethos83 View Post
You're right. The Austrians probably don't care that people outside Austria don't know who the premier is. The typical Scot may not care for any international prestige either and are content to be known as a theme park for Chinese tourists.

Still, I do have a particular point of pride in the history of Great Britain and her accomplishments in the world and the residual legacy. I'd be very sorry to see that history broken up and relegated to the dustbins of history.

You're not banging on about the Auld Alliance are you? The one that the French have completely forgotten about for the last few hundred years and was an incredibly minor detail in the greater scheme of French political ambitions?

I think you'll find that Scotland's trade is primarily domestic and has been for a long time.
I'd suggest a further study of Scottish trade both in the past and today as your answer is nonsense.

Edit a few links and highlights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland
Whisky is probably the best known of Scotland's manufactured products. Exports have increased by 87% in the past decade and it contributes over £4.25billion to the UK economy, making up a quarter of all its food and drink revenues.[32] It is also one of the UK's overall top five manufacturing export earners and it supports around 35,000 jobs.

45,000 people are employed by electronics and electronics-related firms, accounting for 12% of manufacturing output. Today, Scotland produces 28% of Europe’s PCs; more than seven per cent of the world’s PCs; and 29% of Europe’s notebooks.


Top 10 export destinations, 2011
Destination Value
United States £3.5billion
Netherlands £2.7billion
France £1.9billion
Germany £1.4billion
Belgium £1billion
Republic of Ireland £0.8billion
Norway £0.8billion
Spain £0.7billion
Switzerland £0.6billion
Italy £0.6billion
Source: Scotland's Global Connections Survey 2011

The total value of international exports from Scotland in 2011 (excluding oil and gas) was estimated at £23.9billion, of which £14.7billion was from the manufacturing sector and £7.7billion from the services sector. The top five exporting industries in 2011 were food & beverages (£4.2billion), manufacture of coke, refined petroleum and chemical products (£3.7billion), manufacture of computer, electronic and optical products (£1.4billion), financial and insurance activities (£1.4billion) and manufacture of machinery and equipment NEC (£1.4billion). The total value of exports from Scotland to the rest of UK in 2011 (excluding oil and gas) was estimated at £45.5billion, of which £24.5billion was from the services sector and £11.6billion from the manufacturing sector.[47]

More than a few of these are global players in their industries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_of_Scotland

Last edited by shiva; Dec 4th 2013 at 5:21 pm.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:06 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Meow View Post

Now perhaps we can call do the sensible thing and organise UK/British law rather than having different laws in Scotland to England and Wales.
Don't worry, we've got the EU to oversee the transition to EU law for all of us. The differences between Scots and English/Welsh law don't cause a problem, AFAIK.

And actually, to "organise UK/British law" would be an absolute nightmare, you'd have to unwrite and rewrite huge amounts of that which is written, and somehow allow for the better English precedents to have effect in Scotland and vice verca.
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:15 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
You're right. So perhaps you'd prefer I used one of the following instead.

biased, bigoted, discriminatory, partisan, partial, one-sided, jaundiced, intolerant, narrow-minded, unfair, unjust, inequitable, non-objective, unobjective, blinkered, parti pris, coloured, distorted, warped, loaded or weighted
Fair enough, I think most of us are covered under that blanket. Myself I hate those people who wrap themselves in the saltire and wail, moan and gnash their teeth blaming 'the English' for all of Scotland's woes.
Sorry but you don't represent me or Scotland (or the truth, but who is talking about that in Salmonds vision).
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:16 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by shiva View Post
You're right. So perhaps you'd prefer I used one of the following instead.

biased, bigoted, discriminatory, partisan, partial, one-sided, jaundiced, intolerant, narrow-minded, unfair, unjust, inequitable, non-objective, unobjective, blinkered, parti pris, coloured, distorted, warped, loaded or weighted
Chip, meet shoulder....
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Old Dec 4th 2013, 5:19 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
Fair enough, I think most of us are covered under that blanket. Myself I hate those people who wrap themselves in the saltire and wail, moan and gnash their teeth blaming 'the English' for all of Scotland's woes.
Sorry but you don't represent me or Scotland (or the truth, but who is talking about that in Salmonds vision).
I'm not suggesting for a moment that I do represent you that of course being the beauty of democracy but don't brand me as a rabid dog because I'm proud and have a dream of a new future. I apportion no blame to anyone but the scots for our faults
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