Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

What are your thoughts on Scottish Independence? Yes, no or undecided?

Whether Scottish or not a Yes decision could make a huge difference to your home country, Scotland, England, Wales or Ireland.

Interested to see what the current views are of us expats who will not have a vote in this decision.

What will it mean to Scotland and the UK in general?

It seems that the Yes campaign is heading towards a stance of it's more about having a once in a generation (or even lifetime) chance at self determination and a government that more accurately represents the views and votes of the the Scottish people. Factors like the economy are important and appear to be healthy but it's more about the ideal. Glass half full thinking.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ance-secession

The No campaign is much more aligned to the negatives. The economics don't add up. There will be no direct entry to the EU or NATO. Sterling may not be the currency automatically. Glass half empty thinking.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...lex-salmond-eu

Scottish or not - what do you think on this vote?

PS - For the record I am Scottish and am currently in the undecided category with a bias towards the Yes vote.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

No. Not Scottish.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

No. Half Scottish.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Yes, not at all scottish, it'll mean that England can be great again, BUT, no bail outs, no scottish mps in England (or Welsh for that matter), remove the pound from them, remove Faslane and put it somewhere else - Portsmouth or even North Shilelds or Barrow in Furness (where they're made). Build a bloody big fence between the two countries, insist on full passports to go from one to another.

Basically cut off all ties and let them sink like Greece or Spain.

bring it on.

Oh and while we're at it can we kick Wales out and leave the EC too - let NI merge with Eire, so what.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

No thanks mate. We don't want the North.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

So that's a No, then, because none of the above will happen.

It's also a No from me, because it's unworkable and I don't believe that the majority want it.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Once we have fracking sorted we may as well let them go. We only tolerate jockroaches for the oil.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

No, it's very much a YES if the above criteria is met. They want it? Let them have it, but only as a totally separate state.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

WGAF :lol:

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Once fracking gets underway on a large scale, we might all have to move to Scotland.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Good point. We may as well hang on to it then - they have clean mountain water. Or we could just invade them when we need the water.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

I think you tried to be objective with your questions but an inherit bias is pretty visible.

I won't vote because I'm told I have no input so what's the point?

That said I'd be tempted to vote yes just to see all hell break lose. Whatever Salmond says the transition won't be easy and the EU seems firmly opposed to the notion of Scottish independence thanks to Spain who will surely wield her veto for as long as she can. A successful independence movement would shake up complacency in not just Scotland but also in England and it'd be really, really, really interesting to see the aftermath.

An independent Scotland would also make Westminster politics a bit more equitable because by removing Scottish MPs the Tories have a much better shot at winning outright majorities. It doesn't mean it will always happen but the English vote would be more accurately represented in Westminster.

Still, what I don't understand is the SNP whinging about Scotland not being fairly represented when it's Scotland who's foisted the last two PMs on us. Scores of Scots have served as PM and MPs and in the cabinet, not to mention lead the armed forces and the proportion of leading writers, artists, actors and academics in Britain who are Scottish is much higher than the Scottish share of the population. Then you have Salmond whinging about things like the poor health and eduction problems facing deprived Scottish children, when the Scots have complete control over their educational and health systems.

All in all, there's something about the spoilt-child-threatening-to-run-away-from-home-because-mummy-and-daddy-don't-understand-me syndrome about the separatist movement.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

The Scottish national party have said that If Scotland gets independence it will want the following.

To keep the Pound
To keep the monarchy
To keep BBC programmes.

That's like divorcing the wife but telling her you'll be home for tea at night and still expect sex.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

The Cathtilian guy hath thaid that Thcotland can't get into EU. There are other voices in Europe !

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Sorry...WTF has it got to do with Spain? They have a right of veto? Of the proposed split, or something deeper, rooted in EU interference?

BTW (if it is EU-related, which I'm guessing it must be), was bored the other night and ended up watching Farage on YouTube till about 1am. Sent me to bed in a real good humour!

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

Salmond keeps saying that Scotland would automatically be a member of the EU despite that the EU has consistently said Scotland would have to go through the whole rigmarole process of applying for membership, which takes close to a decade plus a vote of approval from all member states. Just one veto can nix Scotland's application, which is where Spain steps in as Spain is nervous if Scotland succeeds then both the Catalonian and Basque regions of Spain will start demanding their own independence.

The EU's overall tone is not keen on seeing an independent Scotland because they have enough problems without having to worry about separatist movements in member countries complicating matters and they're also afraid that an independent Scotland would only encourage Britain, now little more than England with a few appendages, to leave the EU as well (so says my mate in Brussels).

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

The Scottish friends I have spoken to about this all say independence would be very bad for Scotland...and they consider themselves patriotic when it comes to being Scottish.

Alex Salmond is just a whinging fat twat, I expect he's relishing the thought of being able to fiddle his expenses moreso than they do already in Westminster.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

No need to apologise, thanks for the explanation. Interesting to note Salmond's and the EU's differening views on automatic membership. I guess there's nothing in the EU's constitution which deals with the topic, which could mean that an independent Scotland would seek a judicial ruling on their automatic inclusion, which would probably take as long as the 10 years to go through the application rigmarole. Logic would surely suggest that if the constituent parts of a member state become separate, then those constituents parts remain / become members. In fact, if The United Kingdom of [England, Wales and Scotland] and Northern Ireland were to be no longer comprised of those four parts, why should the 3/4s remaining have any greater right to automatically stay in the EU than the other 1/4? What if Scotland and NI decided to form a Celtic Nation--surely England & Wales would have the same standing as the Celts, with both nations automatcially in or out?

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Not necessarily.

Britain is unusual in that the 'state' and country are not the same. Scotland is a country. England is a country. But the larger state is the UK.

It's the UK, not England or Scotland, which is a member of the EU. If Scotland leaves the existing 'state' it becomes a new 'state' of its own and as such needs to be treated as a wholly new, separate country just like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia when they left Russia/the former Soviet Union.

But the previous 'state' of the UK doesn't disappear. It still remains, just minus a geographical area. When the Soviet Union broke up the Russian 'state' didn't disappear as the main body, Russia, continued to exist and held on to the political privileges granted to the former Soviet Union. The new Russian Federation simply took over the Soviet Union's seat in the UN and its associated privileges including the permanent seat on the security council. The Russians retained the Soviet embassies and diplomatic assets abroad as well as the former Soviet military assets.

It's the same with a Scottish independence. All the political privileges granted to the UK 'state' will remain with the UK. The embassies aren't going to be divided between England or Scotland but will remain owned by the UK. The same with the military and military assets (except for those on Scottish soil). The political and economic treaties the UK holds with other entities (including the EU) remain in effect but Scotland would have to draft its own treaties with those countries.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Yep, that makes sense.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Just pinched myself, I've learnt something on BE.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Happy St. Andrews Day!!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...19488235_n.jpg

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Comment fro Boris Johnson (Oh i do like him), in today's fail:-

Fighting for the United Kingdom
Margaret Thatcher would now be fighting like a lioness for our union with Scotland, and she would comfortably see off [SNP leader] Alex Salmond, because she would have instinctively identified the heart of the matter: that this isn’t about whether or not the Scots will be £800 per year worse off per head.
This is about the demolition of Britain, about taking the blue background from the union flag, lopping the top off the most successful political union in history.
It would diminish both Scotland and England, and it would be no consolation to her that the loss of Britain, might also mean the end of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

New flag (?) of the former United Kingdom (or F U K for short) :p

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Not forgetting, of course, that Scotland would lose all the opt-outs it currently enjoys thanks to being part of the UK... and yet Salmond seems to think that the EU will just bend over backwards to give Scotland whatever it wants, i.e. automatic membership with all the UK's opt-outs intact.

When you look at it, Salmond doesn't really want true independence, he wants to be able to cherry-pick all the parts that he wants out of the Union. The real kicker is keeping sterling - Salmond even expects the Bank of England to act as lender of last resort. That means basically, English taxpayers would be on the hook to bail them out if things go wrong. And this is all asserted as established fact, there's not even a hint that the 92% of the UK which isn't Scotland even gets to say anything in the matter.

Well, "Westminster" should make it utterly plain - you want to be independent, you get it. So make your own currency, or join the euro. Because you ain't going to turn sterling into a copy of the eurozone, and sure as **** English taxpayers aren't going to be on the hook to bail out your banks again.

Sturgeon's "threat" that Scotland would refuse to assume its share of debt is laughable. Let's see how far you get when the first act of an independent Scotland is an attempt to establish a new currency for a country which has just effectively defaulted on its sovereign debt...

They are either deceiving themselves or, I suspect, just deceiving their voters. I don't think they're stupid, they are aware that it's all complete bollocks.

And they are in for a very nasty wake-up call when they realise Scotland's actual economic and political bargaining power in the world. The idea that the rest of the UK, which is ten times bigger, is going to roll over and give them everything they want is laughable - let alone the EU, which is 100 times bigger. An independent Scotland in the EU would be a minnow shackled to a whale, it would have no power to influence EU policy whatsoever.

And I say all that as someone who really likes Scotland, the West Highlands and Islands especially...

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

I suspect your ancestors took a similar line with George Washington !

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

The big difference, of course, being that America wanted true independence. Sever all ties, stand or fall entirely on its own two feet. The SNP doesn't want that.

I don't actually have strong personal feelings either way about Scottish "independence" (I think I'll start putting the word in quotes, because that's more appropriate), but I also don't think that the SNP has come remotely close to building a convincing case in favour of it. It can't provide solid rebuttals to any of the points I made in my previous post, and more tellingly it's refusing to acknowledge that there could possibly be any downsides. The reality, of course, is that there are pros and cons to either a yes or no vote, for both sides.

As was pointed out in the recent debate, Salmond is essentially saying that he wants a divorce, but he also wants to be allowed to keep the joint bank account :lol:

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Everyone would support Salmond if he tied Donald Trump to a Wind Turbine blade.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Your one-liners never fail to amuse me. I do look forward to them...

The American colonists were upset because they were being taxed without representation (that the taxes were to pay for the colonists' defence against the Indians is besides the point here). I don't think Scotland can use the same argument, no?

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

love it !

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Shit. I agree with the witch on something.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Scottish, and firmly yes.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Not Scottish, but if they want independence I am all for it. But it has to be done properly mind, clean break with no help or handouts.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

The feeling is completely mutual...........

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Give them independence, block their entry to the EU, block any free trade agreements with the EU, make them use their own currency, introduce strict border controls and Visas.

will be quite amusing.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

I was all for keeping the Union but if it meant agreeing with Boris and maggie I'm afraid they can bugger off

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

So if the Republic doesn't want it, and the English don't want it. Let it join with Scotland solving two issues at once.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

So we just build a wall across the middle of the country then? Above or below Brum?

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

Restore Hadrian's wall for Scotland, build a wall around the Brummies and we will dig a canal along our northern border which will allow NI to float free and bump up against Scotland.

Re: Scottish Independence - Yes or No?
 

I'm half Scottish and am against, although that thought is waning slightly. I generally consider myself English after growing up south of the border although I have always been tight with my Scottish heritage - you have to be with a surname like mine. Funnily enough, however, I only found out my old man was actually born in Scotland a few months ago. I knew his dad was a Scot but always assumed my old man was born in England, so essentially I am newly half and not quarter. Also I went to Uni in Scotland and have lived there for 9yrs. My mum still lives there too.

As for independence, of course I know it's all a load of sh!t and assume that Salmond is smoking some seriously good gear BUT, I'm getting to the point that it's like a couple of warring parents who should really just divorce and get it over with, whatever the consequences. I had a look at the summary of his white paper and it's a comedy document. You can find the much sorter 50 pages summery (against 670 page fairy table) on the BBC website.

Personally I can't see it ever happening as it'll never get voted in, the Scots aren't stupid enough to not see that Salmond is living in cloud cook coo land if he thinks he will get what he is asking for (from the UK or from the EU). We all know he is just a power hungry fool who's pretty much just shouted 'all in' and pushed his chips into the centre of the table. This is a last gasp attempt from him. If or when he loses you'll never hear from him again.

The other half of me would like to see it happen just out of badness to see the outcome. Although that's only if it was a complete split, no sterling, Monarchy, bank bail out, defense, etc etc and they would need to stump up their portion of the national debt. This is mainly just so I could say 'I told you so' to all the tartan wearing, haggis munching SNP wankers I have discussed this with over the last year or so.

The only thing is, neither outcome will remove the chip on the shoulder that 90% of Scots has ingrained into them from an early age. And as no one other than Scots who actually reside in Scotland can vote (clever move there Salmond) it's all a bit of a non argument. I wonder what the figures fore and against Scottish Independence would be from folk in England would be. I'd guess the figure will be increasing with time tho.